-Caveat Lector- http://www.shamash.org/listarchives/join-talk/980712 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jul 12 22:35:12 1998 From: Paul Gardner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: A forum for discussing Australian/Jewish issues and events. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [JOIN-TALK:3001] Re: Publicising names of One Nation member MIME-version: 1.0Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BITX-edited-by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:34:55 EDTReply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.06 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN> >David Fisher wrote > My precise words were 'I think David Oldfield of One Nation is an > antisemite'. Having seen on TV the manner on in which he referred to the > group of Jews who published the 2,000 names I think he is. That is my only > evidence. That is not saying he is one. That is saying I think he is one, > and I think I have the right to say that.David Of course you have the right to think so, and to say so. You may even be right. But David Oldfield's anger at AIR for having his membership list partly exposed doesn't necessarily make him antisemitic. Perhaps he is one, but I would want some separate evidence, and so far I haven't seen any. I want to see One Nation vigorously opposed, and I support any legitimate ways of exposing their racist policies and countering their support. But let's do it carefully, and not use dubious procedures or make unjustified accusations, which can in the long run rebound on us as acommunity. PaulFrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jul 12 22:36:31 1998 From: Frances <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: A forum for discussing Australian/Jewish issues and events. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [JOIN-TALK:3002] Re: Publicising names of One Nation members MIME-Version: 1.0Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitX-edited-by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:36:16 EDTReply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.06 -- ListProc(tm) by CRENShalom David, I am not Jewish I am a Noachide. So I am probably more in touch with the thinking of Gentiles than you are. I am an 11th generation Australian, and I have watched this country change dramatically over the last 50 years. When Hitler came to power he got elected because he had political doctrines which appealed to Germany. Germany was in a terrible depression and the existing government was as useless as our own present government. That is why he had such success. The answer to the problem is for the present parties to lift their acts and begin to address problems such as your friendhas. I have seen this coming too. I tried to warn people in power, but greed is more powerful. Yes Pauline Hanson has some very strong points to make, if she did not she would not have such a strong attraction. But IMHO her methods for solving those problems are unworkable. When challenged recently about how she would fund her policies she stumbled and muttered something about taking the money from the Aborigines. I heard her speak about wanting 'foreigners' to be able to speak English before they arrived here. Yet her own language was virtually incomprehensible, even as she spoke. IMHO she is not smart enough to really understand what she is involved in. She is just 'very passionate', it seems to me that it is her 'minders' who are pulling her strings, and some of them are really dangerous. The other policies of Pauline Hanson, and her knee jerk response to the present situation, is ill considered and dangerous in the extreme. http://www.gwb.com.au/onenation/hanson/http://www.gwb.com.au/gwb/hanson.html I have been watching Pauline Hanson's present supporters for the last few years as they have evolved and been ...... quite deliberately 'worked' by neo nazis, yes I said neo nazis! That is the problem! The ordinary farmer out there who just wants his farm to remain in his hands is being used by these people. These groups have been putting out propaganda for years, and the financial support for these groups has been coming in, at least one case that I know of, straight from Gaddafi, on behalf of his friends, Arafat andSaddam Hussein. The New Dawn Magazine in its initial stages at least was quite openly offering Gadaffi's Little Green Book, and carried pro Gadaffi articles in virtually every issue. I did some research several years ago together with a Jewish friend, and together we discovered the links of the magazine New Dawn which was financed and begun by men with connections to Libya, theirnames are below. http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/features/features/970524/features8.html an excerpt from the above website. "Yet Exposure, Nexus and New Dawn all deny being right-wing publications. New Dawn's co-founder, Robert Pash, acknowledges he flirted with extreme- Right politics as a teenager but says he abandoned those beliefs more than 15 years ago. Today, Pash is director of the Libyan Arab Cultural Centre in Melbourne, and New Dawn's editor, David Jones, describes his political roots as pro-Arab Left." A photo of Pash was published in the newspaper standing in front of the Libyan flag well over 10 years ago. A friend of mine recognised this man as someone who had gone along to a religious group that she was attending, at thetime. New Dawn was initially funded by the Libyan Arab Cultural Centre. One of the links in this strange chain of bedfellows is The Citizens Electoral Councils of Australia which is a front for LaRouche. When Peter Sawyer decided to retire from his newsletter he abandoned his promise to keep his readership list secret, and handed it over to CEC. http://JewishSF.Com/bk960216/iaoz.htm http://www.werple.net.au/~militant/jun97/hanson.htm http://werple.net.au/~militant/feb98/2nigel.htm http://www.jdl.org/urbanterrorists.htmlhttp://www.hatewatch.org/Christ.html http://www.pcug.org.au/~mstreet/guns/gunsite.htm quote below. "Ted Drane has gone on to found the Australian Reform Party. Originally he wanted to form a joint front with ex-Labour independent MP Graham Campbell, but the joint effort broke up due to the latter's involvement with the League of Rights. While it is linked with the original Canadian Reform Party, from what I can see the two groups have comparatively little in common apart from rhetoric and opposition to GST's and gun restrictions. The Australian organisation alone proposes changes to the Australian political system such as recall of representatives and citizens' initiated referenda which will be familiar to followers of the Citizens Electoral Councils. The party logo also echoes that of the CEC's. Or am I just being too suspicious?"http://www.reform.org.au/ http://www.pcug.org.au/~mstreet/guns/farright.htm http://www.pcug.org.au/~mstreet/guns/farright.htm#The US Militia Movement >From an advertisement in Lock Stock & Barrel: "IT'S TIME TO TAKE AUSTRALIA BACK! We reject the socialist republic We will defend the Australian Constitution and the Flag Australia is broke, defenceless and its citizens are being disarmed AUSTRALIA NEEDS YOU to prepare and equip to defend our national alongside our armed forces. JOIN THE A.U.S.I FREEDOM SCOUTS" I'm sure our armed forces would be overjoyed to have the Freedom Scouts by their side... Their patriotism is further shown in the ad by using Uncle Sam modified to have an Australian flag on his hat, and their logo which has a remarkably American-looking eagle crest.Australian Right to Bear Arms Again quoting from the Herald: "Headed by Queensland gun lobby activist Bob Doring and once linked to Peter Sawyer, who espoused a conspiracy theory about a Canberra telecommunications centre spying on Australians. Sawyer also had contacts with early CEC movement, but CEC's Isherwood now says ARBA espouses 'the wrong direction for this country.'"The Australians A Queensland-based organisation formed out of the former Western Australian Confederate Action Party. There is 'Lock Stock and Barrel' mentioned above, which is run by a racist gun dealer who advocated in his magazine that people murder Asians and other people they think are undesirable, even going so far as to describe methods of doing so.Lock Stock and Barrel was banned a couple of times, but it keeps on reappearing. I still have a few copies of back issues. I know for a fact that there are guns buried out there, in the country on farms, for the 'militia' which is being put together by the Aryan Nations. The Attorney General's Dept. is aware of what is going on. It is these people who are the main support for Pauline Hanson. Robyn Spencer is in cahoots with Ray Platt and his little groups, Ray Platt publishes a racist little paper with a large mailing list called "The Strategy". His links are with Aryan Nations, several "Identity groups" and with the "League of Rights." There are several Identity churches in Australia, one using the title "Covenant Vision". The Covenant Vision and other Identity Groups advertise in Ray Platt's, "The Strategy" Ray Platt's address is 92 Neale Street, Bendigo. His phone number is 054 412558 if anyone wants to subscribe to his magazine. "The Strategy" However I suggest that you use a pseudonym if you want to, something Anglo-Saxon preferably. http://www.hatewatch.org/Christ.html http://www.rpi.net.au/~frank/ There is one particular woman who I have met who has been working for years to tie together several smaller groups, such as Citizens Referendum, The Strategy discussion groups, The League of Rights, together with the Identity groups. This woman who works behind the scenes who is highly intelligent and who boasts that she has links with the media, she was responsible for the campaign a couple of years ago to stop the amalgamation of the Councils. I have attended some of these underground meetings to see what was going on, such as when Ray Platt brought out some of the leading neo nazi's from the USA. At one of these meetings they were selling bumper stickers with slogans such as "E=MC2 - IT'S A WHITE THING YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND." A friend who was with me at the time wrote on the back of it. "It's a Jewish thing you wouldn't understand." I still have that sticker, it is before me as I write this. IMHO When Pauline Hanson and Robyn Spencer were being interviewed by the press it was clear that Robyn Spencer was in charge, not Pauline. I attended two other meetings held by Ray Platt's discussion group at the Lilydale Hotel. The speaker for the following week was announced as Robyn Spencer. I was not able to attend that meeting. The men who I knew became suspicious of me and I felt that it was best not to continue to be involved. I didn't feel like being found in the bottom of a mine shaft. That is where Ron Owens writing under a pseudonym in his Lock Stock & Barrel, suggests that the bodies of the undesirable be put. We are not living in Utopia! There is an undercurrent of hatred and racism in this country which has been created by the stupid blindness of the politicians from all sides of the spectrum who have failed to see this coming. The Third Reich had similar people behind it,promoting it. It is time to wake up and smell the coffee David. I met a Jew at Shul who felt that Pauline Hanson was right about guns and that therefore we should not oppose her. But the issues at stake are far larger than guns, or farmers even, important as these issues maybe. Before you object again to what I have said please go and check your facts. Get a hold of the magazines I have mentioned, and see what they are really promoting. When Pauline Hanson was asked about how she was going to pay for her plans she answered that the money would be taken from the Aborigines. Protecting her from her supposed enemies has already cost Australia a cool $1 million dollars, more than it costs for us to pay for protection for the Prime Minister, whose life was genuinely threatened. Ms. Hanson was even trying to use her Federal Police bodyguards as bouncers to throw out of her press conference reporters from a dissenting Newspaper. Just imagine under Pauline Hanson there would be NO dissent! As weird as it sounds, some how some very strange bedfellows have been united in their war against what they see as their 'common enemy,' the present political parties. They see themselves as some sort of 'heaven sent saviours' set to fix all the ills of society by kicking out the unwanted foreigners, just as Hitler did. And turning back the clock. One wonders how far behind would be - their 'Final Solution.'Shalom,Frances David Fisher wrote: > Since I did not write what I thought about One Nation in my post you cited I > don't see the relevance of the question. I gather you are equating One > Nation with the Nazis by your question. I find both One Nation and your > equation of it with the Nazis objectionable. > I have a friend who I regard as a thoroughly decent man and neither a Nazi > nor an antisemite. He is 84 years old, a former British Army officer and a > member of One Nation. When he was younger he raised sugar in North > Queensland and is bothered by the fact that none of the other parties seem > to care about small farmers.From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jul 12 23:43:02 1998 From: Stephanie Liss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: A forum for discussing Australian/Jewish issues and events. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [JOIN-TALK:3004] reply to: the need for Hebrew and Yiddish, and other politics Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-edited-by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:42:49 EDT Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.06 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN To my new Australian friends...... First, I'd like to respond to the posting that Hebrew and Yiddish are not needed. As an American Jewish woman, with very strong Jewish roots, and one who is very involved with my synagogue, and studies Torah, (Although not Orthodox), I feel it is imperative that we not lose the mama loshen, or Hebrew. For one thing, it connects us to our roots. Our histories are bound in these two languages. There is a feeling like no other, when I sit in a Kosher restaurant, or a park, or another event, and I hear the elders speaking Yiddish. It is a language that Hitler tried to kill, along with the bubbies and zaidies who spoke it. We have a responsibility not to let it die. It is part of our souls. As for Hebrew, there is no greater thrill for me, as I study Hebrew now, as an adult in my forties, than to be able to not only speak it, but to read it. As I study Torah, as I pray the liturgy, and I am able to read and understand, not only what is written, but the nuances as well, My soul soars! All of my friends feel that way. Israel is our homeland. I love Israel. That, too, is in my soul, and as a Jew, if we are to survive into the next century, without assimilation, and survive the intermarriage (to which I am not opposed, although it is not right for me), we must preserve that which not only belonged to the ancients, but which has been passed on to us. Besides, Hebrew is a beautiful language, filled with nuance. Each root connected to other letters has many meanings. There are many meanings to one word. Part of our Torah study, is discovering the meaning both hidden and real, and relating Torah to our lives. To be a Jew is to live Torah. We each carry our own Torah, and must be true to that. Now, as for your One Nation, having read all the postings, I am deeply, deeply concerned. This will not go away. I speak from experience, for here, in the U.S., we had DAvid Dukes, former Grand Wizard of the KuKluxKlan, run for Senate. While he didn't make it, the fact that he even got one vote was frightening. There is a definite rise here, in hate crimes, both white against black, and the desecration of synagogues. We, too, have just passed a bill for English only, because we have a problem with illegal immigrants crossing our borders. (Here is Los Angeles, Calif.) I find it all appalling. We also have survivalists, with guns buried in the hills in the mid, and southwest. Unfortunately, there's nothing one can do about it. Just try to keep the one nation candidate down. Sometimes, the more attention placed on a platform such as hers seems to be, the worse it is, because then it seems as though she's really being taken seriously, and poses a threat, whereas silence tends to silence. Take heart. Sorry about the long message. I hope this gets to you all. I'm new at computer, and am never sure how to post these things. B'ahava v'shalom..... Stephanie <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. 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