-Caveat Lector-
flw wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> > It is not a matter of "supporting" the PLO and Arafat.
> > The reality is that the West Bank / Gaza situation is essentially
> > one of Neo European Colonialism.
>
> >>>>> That's one interpretation. And it's an arguable one. The Israelis are
> >>>>> not European any more than you are. They are Israelis. And the West Bank,
> > >>>>and Gaza are territories that were lost to Israel in a war with Arab Palestine
> >>>>> A.K.A. Jordan, who was warned not to attack Israel during the Six Day War.
> >>>>> They are not " occupied " by Israel. They are occupied by a conquered enemy
> > >>>>population. Losers can't be choosers.
> >>>>>(J2)
>
> The European pedigree of the modern state of Israel cannot be denied.
> As you say, the Palestinians are an "occupied" people. The Black South
> Africans were an occupied people for several hundred years as were generations
> of Algerians. Of course the Boers and the many generation Algerian born
> French thought the same thing. Time and time again the Boers and French
> "beat" the natives. The Boers and the French considered themselves "winners"
> and the Black S. Africans and Algerians "losers." Of course History reveals
> the real winners and losers. And we haven't even begun to discuss the
> sordid, double dealing role the European Colonial Powers (especially Great
> Britain) had in creating the state of Israel.
And the state of Lebanon. And the state of Kuwait. And the state of Jordan.
So what's your point? The Christian Europeans have been fucking up the world for
hundreds of years. This is still an extention of WWI French and British
Colonial politics.
> >>>>> How come no one is asking the USA to return Texas, Colorado, Arizona, New
> >>>>> Mexico, and California to Mexico??? And, the rest of the country to the
> >>>>> Indians? How come you are not?
> >>>>>(J2)
>
> I dont ask anything from anyone. As a matter of fact it becomes more apparent
> every year that the Mexicans are reoccuping Tx, Colorado, Az, N. Mexico
> and Calif. It would not surprise me if during this century, the US devolves into
> several different, independent countries or if at least part of the above states
> reattach themselves to Mexico as a result of political agitation from Mexican
> Americans or illegal Mexican immigrants - a mirror replay of the founding
> of the Texas Republic.
This is happening NOW. Look into LaRaza. Look into the Mayoral election
that just happened in LA.
>
> >Since WWII there have been countless "wars of National Liberation."
> > These wars of national liberation are very brutal wars where terrorism is the
> > most effective and common weapon - for both sides. Terrorist bombings
> > by insurgents; airplane bombings by the superior military side. Torture
> >is "de rigueur" by those seeking to oppress the insurgents.
> > Algeria, Kenya, Viet Nam, Rhodesia, South Africa come readily to mind.
> > Of course Israel itself was birthed through terrorism.
> >
> >
> >>>>> This is NOT THE SAME AS COLONIZATION FOR PROFIT! This was a matter of
> >>>>>> survival where the Palestinians paid for the sins of Christian Europe. I
> >>>>>> personally think the Germany should have been given to the surviving Jews.
> > >>>>>Then the Germans would be dealing with the aftermath of dispossession. That
> > >>>>>would have been justice.
> >>>>>>(J2)
>
> Making a distinction between colonization for "profit" and colonization for
> "survival" is specious in terms of history.
Pffft. Very intellectual drivel, but it's more than " specious " to the people
who's survival is at stake.
> Every colonizer attempts to justify
> their actions. The alleged motives for the colonization are meaningless in regards
> to the reaction of the colonized. I am sure the colonized say that whether you
> colonize "to save souls..bring civilized enlightenment....need to take others
> land for your own ....or simply take resources" makes no difference. I doubt
> whether the new victims are more accepting of their victimhood because their
> oppressors were once victims.
It doesn't depend on the victims being accepting or not. It all depends on
military superiority.
> For you to claim their is no "economic
> motive" in the continuing occupation of the West Bank or Gaza denies reality.
Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that. I said that the colonization
of Palestine by European Jews was not for profit in the way that European
Christian Capitalists colonized half the world against its will.
> The Arabs are a cheap source of labor and we haven't even begun to discuss
> distorted allocation of water resources and in the Middle East water is more
> important then oil.
You are talking to the guy who invented the subject. Water.
> >>>> That was in the first half of the last century. There is no more Palestine.
> >>>>> There is Israel and Jordan. Like it or not. I think that if the Palestinians
> >>>>> don't like living under the Israelis, AND they can't defeat them in order
> >>>>> to change their situation, they should move to Germany.
>
> Your time frame is silly. We are talking about never forgotten grievances (real
> and imagined) that go back 1000's of years....and you speak of a few decades?
OK. Stop smoking those funny cigarettes because it's affecting your brain.
Is this whole discussion not about what happened in 1948???????
> > Few observers "supported" the terrorist tactics of the insurgents or the
> > status quo. As J2 points out - such is the reality of brutual conflicts -
> > and the side with the highest pain tolerance usually prevails.
> > Generally those with less to lose and the higher birth rate will
> > win.
> >
> >>>>> This is a wrong analysis. The side with the greatest power will win. Either
> >>>>> the power of numbers as in S. Africa, or the power of military strength.
>
> I agree with you. Unless the Israelis decide to exterminate millions of Palestinians
> (and the world placidly accepts this) their long term outlook is not good. And
> without fail, in an occupied situation the side with the numbers will always beat the
> militarily superior occupier. I challenge you to name one example of a militarily
> superior occupier outlasting a much bigger occupied population in modern (and
> ancient) history.
What are you talking about? Arabs make up about 20% of the Israeli
population.
> In addition, in an occupier situation, a conventional military
> power is at a disadvantage. Jet planes and massive tank attacks are useless unless
> the occupier decides to bomb or smash the occupied people into oblivion.
> The terrorist bomb and the sniper become the weapon of choice of both sides and
> puts both sides on a more equal footing.
Don't be silly. Watch what will happen in the next few weeks.
>
> > As the Israelis assume a traditional European / American standard of
> >living with all that entails such as glorifying a lifestyle that abhors
>inconvenience
> >and demands instant gratification (much like the traditional colonialists living
> >in their colonialist bubble) they paradoxically become weaker. For
> >example it is now common for young Israelis to dodge the draft which
> > was almost unheard of in the past.
> *****
> >>>> This was true up to a point.... But the Palestinians don't want peace.
> >>>> They want Israel to disappear and return to Old Palestine.
> >>>> That won't happen. And the Palestinians and all the Arab world can't make
> > >>>it happen. So they didn't take the best offer they would ever get. When the
> >>>> bourgie Israelis saw that, it hit home. They reverted to the survival
> >>>> mentality and elected the man who was most likely to deal with the enemy
> >>>> as an enemy. Sharon.
>
> As we write this the Israeli draft dodging and desertion (refusing to report) is
> increasing. Most of the secular (and many religious) Jews do not want to
> risk their lives for zealots living in Fort Apache.
This is not the case ANYMORE. There are some soldiers who are refusing to serve
in the territories. They are not refusing to serve in the army.
>From the time Sharon was elected PM, the Israelis have circled the wagons.
The Israeli peace movement was wiped out by the stupidity of Arafat and the
Palestinian leadership. They made it very clear that they were never
interested in peace with the Jews after all. Now we'll see what happens
when you bring a knife to a gun fight. The Israelis no longer care about world
opinion.
Here's what I see happening. The special forces will kill off the leadership
of all the terrorist groups possibly including Arafat. They will disarm all
the militias and remove the secretly stored illegal weapons they have
accumulated for war. If the other Arab states start making war noises, the
Israelis will go to conventional war with Egypt, and Syria. They might enter
Jordan and Lebanon too, but won't necessarily have to fight them.
It is also a possibility that Israel will take the war to Iraq and Iran,
depending on what secret weaponry they have cooking.
The economies of the west could totter from oil shocks and corporate price
gouging. From that point on, anything can happen.
Are the Palestinians worth it when they already have a state with a 60% plus
Palestinian population which once was Palestine too? Print your answer now,
and I'll ask you again a year from now and we'll see if you are consistent.
>
> > The more squalid the Palestinian's conditions become - the stronger they
> > become in terms of this conflict.
> >
> >>>> This is a ridiculous statement. The Palestinians are losing all around.
> >>>> They are even losing in world opinion which is swinging against them. They
> >>>> have demonstrated their true intent.
>
> Again you are plain wrong. Survey after survey shows that the more the Israeli's
> turn the screws, the more the Palestinians support the Interfada.
It doesn't matter. It never mattered. They all always wanted Israel gone.
> Rightly or wrongly
> throughout the world, more and more people have come to see the Palestinians as
>victims
> and the Israelis as oppressors and occupiers. As long as the Israelis act the role
> of occupiers of a conquored people, they have no moral authority.
It doesn't matter. It's not about morals. It's about land.
> For example, on every
> major college campus in the US, Canada, and Europe leftist groups are springing
> up demanding sanctions against Israel and calling them oppressors and the
>Palestinians
> victims.
It doesn't matter. Three's not a fucking thing they can do about it. Talk is
cheap. Especially on the Left.
> Again I have no dog in either camp. That is the reality. In Europe many of
> your esteemed "anti capitalist demonstrators" are markedly anti Israel. I note the
> recent BBC broadcast damming Sharon as an international war criminal. I note
> French anti globalist demonstrators actually going to the West Bank to demonstrate
> solidarity with the Palestinians.
It doesn't matter. The Left has ALWAYS been anti Israel, and anti-Semitic too.
This may be news to you, but Israelis have always known this.
> > Perhaps the closest to the Palestinian / Israeli situation is South Africa.
> >
> >>>>> Not even the same ball game. This is a forced and contrived comparison
> >>>>> designed to appeal to Liberals.
>
> Your denial rings hollow. The Boers occupied S. Africa for hundreds of years.
> They were a European based immigrant group who occupied much land that
> already was occupied by a native population. The Boers immigrated to Africa
> out of "cultural survival" .. they were religiously oppressed in Europe. As they
>eventually
> became swamped by native Black Africans they attempted to maintain control through
>Apartheid. Israel's worst enemy is demographics.
> 25% NATIVE BORN Israelis are
> Arab and they will outnumber the Jewish Israelis in 50 years. This of course
> overlooks the millions of Palestinians who live in the "occupied" territories.
And this is why the Israeli peace movement gave up trying for peace. The stupid
Palestinians wanted the right of return to Israel/ Old Palestine. This showed
them conclusively and incontrovertibly that the Palestinians were playing the
peace game but were never serious about recognizing it and accepting its
existence. Isn't that what peace was supposed to mean? But they fucked up.
They tipped their hand too early.
> > >
> > It is clear that Israel's long term plan is an Apartheid State. Only an
> > Israeli Apartheid State could possibly survive demographic reality
> > assuming Israel insists on remaining a Theocratic "ethnically pure"
> > political entity.
> >
> >>>>>> Israel intends to remain Jewish. That's the point of it's existence. If
>someone
> >>>>>> doesn't like it, too bad. > J2
>
> I am sure it does. However mere intentions won't solve this problem. The only
> practical solution is for Israel to evolve into a large, multi cultural, multi
>religious
> state.
You mean like Saudi Arabia? How about Syria? Maybe Jordan. How come you people
don't realize what racists you are. How multicultural is Kuait? How multi-
religious is the Vatican?
No thanks. That's not what the world's Jews need or want. Israel has no value
to the diaspora Jews if it is not a guranteed safe haven. Only a Jewish state
can guarantee this. There are Plenty of multicultural countries in the world.
I'm sure the Palestinians can find one that would love to have them. How about
your house FLW? Won't you take in a poor Palestinian family? I know Saba would.
> Israel can never survive long term as an exclusive, de facto racist or Theocratic
> state with an evergrowing internal non Jewish native born Arab population and
>millions
> of occupied Arabs banging on the door.
Nothing lasts for ever. But I wouldn't bet against the Israelis anytime soon.
The Palestinian / Israeli conflict will come to an end shortly. The Arab states
will be more than happy to see Palestinians crushed. If it doesn't escalate into
a nuclear conflict, the Palestinians will be Jordan's problem because there
won't
be any left west of the Jordan River. And that may include the Palestinians
known as Israeli Arabs.
> But of course if all nations did the rational
> thing - history would be quite boring and I suspect that over the next years, things
>in
> Israel / Palestine will never be boring.
I disagree. After this next round. Things will be profoundly changed.
And quiet. One way or the other.
Stay tuned.
J2
> flw
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