Dan, First of all, my hat's off to your great great uncle who single handedly killed four cossacks. I've read that cossacks were pretty tough. That's quite a feat. I know this may sound cynical; however, without drawing too many references I'll try to be as quick as possible. In my many perusals over data covering the origins of Israel, I never read the following in one place; instead, it is a compilation of diverse sources. You may think it a little bizarre; however, I think it makes more sense than the generally accepted account of "what happened". In the early twentieth century, the desire for a jewish homeland was pursued by many prominent jews, people like Herzl and powerful financiers like the Rothschilds. Some very powerful British gentlemen saw this pursuit as an opportunity to change the status quo. If you will note, jews in Germany enjoyed a relatively unencumbered economic success, a success not seen in England despite men like Disraeli achieving positions such as prime minister. Yes, I know there was always teutonic racial prejudice to deal with; however, I believe the premise stands: German jews did better economically than British jews, and the German economy reflected this. Those very powerful British gentlemen feared a strong Germany. One way of attacking that strength was to ruin the relatively strong economic relationship of Germany and its jewish population. How could this be done? The promise of a jewish homeland. Germany had no ambitions in this area; however, the British saw it as an opportunity. WWI was a quagmire. The British desperately needed the assistance of the USA. Wilson had been elected on the promise that he would not get involved in the war in Europe; however, Wilson had his faults. Apparently, some former dalliance of his threatened him with personal ruin if he did not pay her some $40,000. Wilson could not afford to pay this blackmail, he turned to his lawyer for help. Wilson's lawyer was a prominent jewish gentleman cognizant of Britain's desire for US intervention in WWI and it's willingness to support the establishment of a jewish homeland. Wilson's lawyer paid the blackmail money from his own pocket in exchange for Wilson's commitment to support Britain and France in WWI. The British kept their end of the deal. I don't think anyone needs a recap of the outcome of WWI. Suffice it to say that the provisions of the Versaille Treaty coupled with the new alliance forged between Britain and european jewry took their toll. The economic depression of the thirties made matters worse. I am not justifying it; however, the realignment of jewish business interests with Britain instead of Germany inflamed an already desperate populace. Hitler's antisemitism took on religious proportions; his desire for liebensraum and a thousand year reich brought us WWII. It is in the aftermath of WWII that things get interesting. If you read anything about Operation Paperclip, you will know that Interpol became a kind of club for ex-nazis. People like Otto Skorzeny ( Hitler's favorite commando )were brought into the US intelligence apparatus while scientists like Von Braun were allowed to continue their research for Uncle Sam. It was better to be an ex- nazi than a communist. Did you ever wonder why Skorzeny was allowed to organize the Arab resistance to Israel while the US Government was voting for the resolution to recognize the Israeli State? It's the good old razzle dazzle - Hegelian dialectics 101. So here we are blaming Arabs, blaming Israel. It is a miracle Israel has survived this long. The problem is control; how to get it; how to keep it; how to hide it. Both sides of what is happening in Israel are more or less controlled by the same group of grey old men. Sharon eats peanuts out of Kissinger's hand while Arafat rubs shoulders with his CFR buddies at meetings of some international socialist group. There may not be any oil in Israel; however, there is a conflict. Whether the conflict is over land, oil, religion, or which end of the hard boiled egg you open, conflict is the machine that keeps the wheels of industry turning; it supports the price of crude oil; it keeps the population down; it keeps Arab and Jew from realizing their potential and living in peace and prosperity. I view Israel's relationship with the USA as that of an abused child with its parental abuser. "...Dad may hit me, but he's the only dad I got, and he does give me an allowance...." Mark Urban --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dan Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In the first place, there is no oil of any commercial quantity in Israel - > this fight is over land, not oil. And I never said I thought the Israelis > were all right and the Palestinians all wrong - that is simplisitic. What I > said was that I thought it was idiotic, given the history, to one- sidedly > blame the Israelis. They did everything they could in 1947 to avoid > confronting the regional Arab coalition that publicly aimed to finsh the job > Hitler started. They accepted UN Res 242 which gave nearly 70% of the land > to the Palestinians. But peace was not an option the nazi-led Palestinians > were willing to consider - their leading doves having been slaughtered by > the Grand Mufti in 1937. So Israel fought. What was left was - not > Palestine, but Jordan. The Jordanians ruled the Palestinians from > 1948-1967, and Palestinian independence was not an option. > > This has always been a regional struggle - the Israelis and the Palestinians > never faced each other in isolation - in 1967 Israel conquered Jordan, not > Palestine, and Black September of 1970 happened in Jordan, at the hands of > the Jordanian Army, not the Israeli. It is true that the Palestinians ARE a > nation, but it is equally true that they never WERE a nation. I criticized > the Palestinains for not engaging the Israelis poltically, for not taking > the chance to demilitarize, that is, to polticize this struggle - it is in > the poltical arena that they have a chance to win. Their fascism has always > been a major impediment to them. I have also criticized the expansionist > Israeli settler movement as strategically insane, from the Israeli > perpective. > > Next, his name was Theodor (Binyamin Ze'ev) Herzl, not Hershel. Herzl > convened and chaired the First Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, on > August 29-31, 1897, the first interterritorial gathering of Jews on a > national and secular basis. Here the delegates adopted the Basle Program, > the program of the Zionist movement, and declared "Zionism seeks to > establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public > law." > At the Congress the Zionist Organization was established as the political > arm of the Jewish people, and Herzl was elected its first president. > > Theodor Herzl, the visionary of Zionism, was born in Budapest in 1860. He > was educated in the spirit of the German-Jewish Enlightenment of the period, > learning to appreciate secular culture. In 1878 the family moved to Vienna, > and in 1884 Herzl was awarded a doctorate of law from the University of > Vienna. He became a writer, a playwright and a journalist. He was the Paris > correspondent of the influential liberal Vienna newspaper Neue Freie Presse. > > Herzl concluded that anti-Semitism was a stable and immutable factor in > Christian society, which assimilation did not solve. He mulled over the idea > of Jewish sovereignty, and, despite ridicule from Jewish leaders, published > Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State, 1896). > > Herzl proposed a practical program for collecting funds from Jews around the > world by a company to be owned by stockholders, which would work towards the > practical realization of this goal - called the Zionist Organization. He saw > the future state as a model social state, basing his ideas on the European > model of the time, of a modern enlightened society. It would be neutral and > peace-seeking, and of a secular nature. > > In his Zionist novel, Altneuland (Old New Land, 1902), Herzl pictured the > future Jewish state as a socialist utopia. He envisioned a new society that > was to rise in the Land of Israel on a cooperative basis utilizing science > and technology in the development of the Land. > > Herzl's ideas were met with enthusiasm by the Jewish masses in Eastern > Europe, although Jewish leaders were less ardent. Still, Herzl convened and > chaired the First Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland, on August 29-31, > 1897. In the same year, Herzl founded the Zionist weekly Die Welt and began > activities to obtain a charter for Jewish settlement in Palestine. > > Herzl traveled to Palestine and Istanbul in 1898 to meet with Kaiser Wilhelm > II of Germany and the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. When these efforts > proved fruitless, he turned to Great Britain, and met with Joseph > Chamberlain, the British colonial secretary and others. The only concrete > offer he received from the British was the proposal of a Jewish autonomous > region in east Africa, in Uganda, not Sudan. > > The 1903 Kishinev pogrom and the difficult state of Russian Jewry was > witnessed firsthand by Herzl during a visit to Russia (my great, great uncle > became world famous for single-handedly killing four Cossacks in one of the > related pograms, in 1905, and living to tell about - my grandmother proudly > showed me the old Yiddish newspaper photos of her very battle- scarred > uncle - sword wounds all over his face and body). Herzl proposed the British > Uganda Program to the Sixth Zionist Congress (1903) as a temporary refuge > for Jews in Russia in immediate danger. While Herzl made it clear that this > program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in > Palestine, the proposal aroused a storm at the Congress and nearly led to a > split in the Zionist movement. The Uganda Program was finally rejected by > the Zionist movement at the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905. Herzl died in > 1904. > > Oil is certainly a factor in this regional struggle, Israel functioning as > an American/NATO strategic asset. The only countervailing force would be > the insane nazism of the Jihad fascists. The choice is a no- brainer. I > think the Palestinians have hurt themselves very badly by not taking the > struggle poltical when Barak opened the door. Mine is an ADVOCACY of a > Palestinian state, Brian, not a tilting toward crazy Eretz Yisrael bullshit > which leaves the Palestinians nothing. It is bullshit because Goliath > wasn't the only Palestinian that King David knew - Eretz Yisrael always > included Palestinian kingdoms - they are as old on that land as the > Israelis, and Israel knows that. > > Given the reality of the history, the Israelis have to be engaged > poltically - machine-gunning their children will just drive them nuts with > rage, and make them more defensively solipsistic than they already are. > That's what I said. And oil has damn little to do with the Palestinian > desire to build Palestine - or the Israeli desire to build Israel. Oil does > indeed have to do with the regional power structure, but all the oil states > have chosen the far saner American/NATO umbrella than the phony, utterly > insane Saddam/Syria umbrella - with which the Palestinians ally themselves. > > These are two conflicting national rights - neither impetus is wrong. But > tilting toward Saddam is suicidal for the Palestinians. This struggle needs > to be taken political. The Palestinains can win a peaceful homeland for > themselves if they do, and such a victory would be a victory for Israel as > well - that's what I said. > > Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Downing Quig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 3:29 PM > Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] Simplistic, unhistorical drivel? > > > > Fletcher Prouty and Theodore Hershel believed that the oil would keep > those in > > the Middle East fighting. Do you find them simplistic, unhistorical or > > driveling? > > > > Hershel, who was the Father of the Jewish Homeland, did not want it > located in > > Palestine because he said already tortured Jews would have no peace there > > because of the oil. He advocated the Sudan where there is also ancient > Jewish > > history and a vigorous Jewish faith today. > > > > I have many African friends who are Coptic Christians, who are essentially > > Jewish Christians. But I am not talking about beliefs. I am saying > economic > > motives supersede beliefs and the latter are given in the news and > diplomacy > > only as excuses to conceal ugly economic motives. > > > > I have Fletcher Prouty's article THE MID EAST CAULDRON which was referred > to > > earlier. I could not find it on the exceptional site > http://www.prouty.org but > > I know it is included on the Prouty CE. If someone else has this please > post it > > now. > > > > Prouty, Hershel and I see economic motives that by far supersede > religious, > > ethnic or sociological issues. I do not understand why you do not. You > think > > there is one good side and one bad side. I do not think Arafat was > invited to > > the last BILDERBERG meeting because of his social skills or because he was > a > > true leader of his people. I know the PLO is all fucked up. Stop trying > to > > convince me of that. They banked with the MOSSAD at BCCI because their > job was > > the same --- to keep the fighting intense for the sake of the price of > oil. > > > > Let us get to the core issue. What would you think of the UNITED STATES > giving > > an equal amount of foreign aid to the Palestinians or suspending the > filthy > > lucra to Israel all together? In a world where so many are starving why > should > > Israel get all this aid money? > > > > This reminds me of a comment Dr. Andrew Weil made at a recent medical > > conference, where the relatively benign nature of the drugs the DEA thinks > > should be illegal because they are so dangerous were discussed. > > > > Wiel said it was an unquestioned assumption of the DEA that the only > reason > > everyone was not using illegal drugs was the DRUG WAR!! They think > prohibition > > is holding back a rush to drug use. He and the other doctors believed > drug use > > would remain about the same or decline if it were treated as a medical > problem > > and not as a law enforcement problem. > > > > It sounds to me that you believe that if the Palestinians are given half a > > chance that they will rise up and murder all the Jews and US foreign aid > is all > > that prevents that. > > > > And please, if I am simplistic and unhistorical. explain how I am wrong > when I > > say there is enough there for both Muslims and Jews? > > > > You must learn to love the Palistenians as you love the Jews. There are > many in > > these 2 groups who work earnestly full time for peace and prosperity > between > > Jews and Palistianians. > > > > Brian > > > > Dan Russell wrote: > > > > > "There is no reason other than the oil that keeps them fighting." > > > > > > Simplistic, unhistorical drivel. This is about a lot more than oil for > both > > > sides. And Barak and Peres had plenty of Palestinian allies desperate > to > > > engineer Palestine. > > > > > > Dan Russell > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Brian Downing Quig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:00 AM > > > Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] why they are hated!: > > > > > > > Dan, if I may venture, I think you are locked into the mind set of > proving > > > one > > > > side is better than the other. Gruesome senseless brutality can be > > > recited by > > > > both sides of the other. Listening only to one side is hopeless. > > > > > > > > I reject this mind set. The Palestinians do not have to loose for the > > > Israelis > > > > to win. There is more than enough there for both. I see both peoples > as > > > > basically fine people victimized by their own brutal leaders who have > more > > > in > > > > common with the interests of the BILDERBERGS than with their own > people. > > > There > > > > is no reason other than the oil that keeps them fighting. > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Russell wrote: > > > > > > > > > This is really picky, my friend. As of March 21, 2000, the > Palestinian > > > > > Authority was in full control of 18 percent of the West Bank and > partial > > > > > control of 21.7 percent. Negotiations began for the third West Bank > > > > > redeployment, scheduled to take place in June. Negotiations were > delayed > > > > > because the Palestinians wanted different areas included in the > > > > > redeployment, and, in particular, demanded control of areas > bordering > > > > > Jerusalem. The Palestinians also didn't complete collection of > illegal > > > > > weapons and reduction of police force to Oslo limit. > > > > > > > > > > There is, of course, a Palestinian side to this argument as well - > > > > > especially the continuing settler and government encroachment on > > > Palestinian > > > > > land. But Israel ploddingly went along with Wye and, after the > shift > > > from > > > > > Netanyahu to Barak, formally proposed in irrevocable diplomatic > > > > > negotiations, turning more than 90% of the West Bank over to the > > > > > Palestinians forever. This was an irrevocable offer that would have > > > > > permanently ended settler expansion and created Palestine. Wye > would no > > > > > longer have been an issue because Palestine would have unilateral > > > control of > > > > > more than 90% of the West Bank - Israeli control would have ended > > > > > permanently. It was a strategic move that would have ended the > war - > > > and > > > > > created a totally different mileu for Arafat's army to live in - a > > > political > > > > > one in which it would be facing other Palestinians - particularly > those > > > who > > > > > demand electoral democracy. Barak was not only ready to help create > > > > > Palestine - but to pump billions into it - as was the US, the EU and > > > many of > > > > > the oil states. > > > > > > > > > > Dan Russell > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 10:43 PM > > > > > Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] Re: why they are hated!: What Israel, and > cia-drugs > > > > > list. have got right > > > > > > > > > > > There would be more for Israel to negotiate with if it fulfilled > one > > > > > > of its past agreements. At Camp David, Arafat was being pressured > to > > > > > > cut a deal even though Israel did not comply with Wye. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dan Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I didn't call anyone here a Nazi. I said that the Palestinian > > > > > > movement, as > > > > > > > many great Palestinian nationalists have been saying for years > > > > > > (Hanan > > > > > > > Ashrawi, Edward Said) is led by fascists who are tied to an > > > > > > international > > > > > > > Nazi movement - the same movment that just comitted mass murder > in > > > > > > > Manhattan - and has, just as revealingly, been torturing Afghani > > > > > > women since > > > > > > > it came into power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By destroying the Israeli dove movement Arafat elected Sharon. > > > > > > This current > > > > > > > war was started by Arafat, not Sharon. Sharon was elected by > the > > > > > > > machine-gunning of Israeli children at school bus stops. (And > no, > > > > > > that does > > > > > > > not justify the hurting of Palestinian children.) Even Barak > has > > > > > > concluded > > > > > > > that there is nothing on the other side to negotiate with. What > > > > > > dialogue? > > > > > > > Of course Israel is now hawkish - the doves no longer can > pretend > > > > > > that they > > > > > > > can deliver peace - they can't. Arafat's idea of negotiations > was > > > > > > literally > > > > > > > to declare war. So Israel elected a tough field general. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure a Palestinian state is a good idea - but Barak already > tried > > > > > > that - > > > > > > > only to be politically destroyed. What is there to negotiate > > > > > > with? A > > > > > > > fascist movement tied to Syrian, Iraqi and Taliban military > > > > > > intelligence? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Russell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:36 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] Re: why they are hated!: What Israel, and > cia- > > > > > > drugs > > > > > > > list. have got right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are characterizing Israeli policies towards Palestinians > by > > > > > > > > describing proposals by Barak, who is no longer in power, > policies > > > > > > > > which were never implemented and did not have the support of > the > > > > > > > > Knesset. You have completely ignored the actual policies of > the > > > > > > > > current leader, Ariel Sharon. If you don't want to reasonably > > > > > > > > discuss the situation and only want to distort the issue, you > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > not participate in this discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Israel intends to rule the Palestinian territories. They want > to > > > > > > > > build settlements that will establish a military presence that > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > deny any self-rule, giving broader access to cheap labor and > total > > > > > > > > rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does the suggestion that "Palestine's right wing crackpots > > > > > > number > > > > > > > > more than 50%" of the population constitute an indictment when > > > > > > > > Sharon's only rival, Netanyahu, is from the same right-wing > party > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > advocating more aggressive policies? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am glad you seem to associate Israel with Barak's attempts > at > > > > > > > > making peace and abiding by past agreements, but those > attempts, > > > > > > > > never followed, ratified, or enacted, have no relationship to > the > > > > > > > > conditions of Palestinian life. Calling everyone ignorant, > > > > > > dishonest > > > > > > > > Nazis does not accomplish peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dan Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year > > > > > > illegal > > > > > > > > military > > > > > > > > > occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian > intifada > > > > > > > > rages." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As if Palestine ever gave Israel any other choice. I > continue > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be amazed > > > > > > > > > and instructed by the many superb scholars on this list - > and > > > > > > > > depressed by > > > > > > > > > the silly ones, like this writer and a few others, who > parrot > > > > > > > > conformist, > > > > > > > > > completely unhistorical drivel about Israel and Islam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What the dedicated empiricists on this list have right is > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > phony > > > > > > > > > drug war forces all intelligence services into the drug > business > > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > purpose of covert arms financing - supply and demand > necessarily > > > > > > > > makes > > > > > > > > > drugs, when criminlized, a prime source of covert arms > > > > > > financing. > > > > > > > > Herb > > > > > > > > > legalization and alkaloid medicalization would eliminate a > major > > > > > > > > leg of > > > > > > > > > fascist power worldwide - as the best in law enforcement, as > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > as the > > > > > > > > > best hippies, have been saying for quite a while. All > > > > > > intelligence > > > > > > > > > services, Iraqi, Palestinian, Israeli, Pakistani, US - have > been > > > > > > > > forced into > > > > > > > > > the drug business by the fascist protection racket known as > the > > > > > > > > Drug War. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the idea that the Arab world has good reason, in > general, > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > pissed > > > > > > > > > at the US for its Israel policies per se, is absolutely > idiotic. > > > > > > > > The US > > > > > > > > > insisted on the creation of a Palestinian state. The recent > > > > > > Oslo > > > > > > > > debacle, > > > > > > > > > in which Israel fielded a dove government that formally > offered > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > PA more > > > > > > > > > than 90% of the West Bank - FOREVER - is typical of the > actual > > > > > > > > historical > > > > > > > > > relationship between Israel and the Palestinians. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The specific mandate of the Barak government was the > creation of > > > > > > > > Palestine. > > > > > > > > > This would have ended the war and created a rich trading > > > > > > partner. > > > > > > > > It would > > > > > > > > > also have opened the door to poltical democracy in > Palestine. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > PA > > > > > > > > > refused, insisting on an unlimited Palestinian right of > return > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pre-1948 borders - that is, the destruction of Israel. > Rather > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > joining > > > > > > > > > with Israel's dove power structure and creating Palestine, > the > > > > > > PA > > > > > > > > started > > > > > > > > > another war, in the process completely destroying the dove > > > > > > movement > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > Israel and electing Likud. The Labor offer to the PA was so > > > > > > > > territorially > > > > > > > > > generous that it was unacceptable to Likud - and Barak was > > > > > > ready to > > > > > > > > go ahead > > > > > > > > > with it. This would have created Palestine - an > international > > > > > > > > border - and > > > > > > > > > permanently limited the expansive Israeli settler movement - > > > > > > > > Isreal's worst > > > > > > > > > right wing crackpots - about 5% of the Israeli population. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Palestine's rightwing crackpots number 50% of the > population. > > > > > > > > Unlike Israel, > > > > > > > > > which can field differing governments because it is, in > fact, an > > > > > > > > electoral > > > > > > > > > democracy, Palestine is ruled by a fascist dictatorship > > > > > > > > unresponsive to any > > > > > > > > > electorate. We now have a practical demonstration of just > what > > > > > > > > Israel is up > > > > > > > > > against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a lie that the Israelis are trying to rule Palestine - > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > fielded > > > > > > > > > the Barak government specifically to extricate themselves, > only > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > confronted by a govenrment run by these insane Jihad > lunatics - > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > government > > > > > > > > > that started the streetwar that now rages. Only then did > the > > > > > > > > Israelis turn > > > > > > > > > to their toughest war hawks. That is the actual history of > the > > > > > > > > > relationship - from the 1930's onward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As we now know, these Jihad lunatics are NAZIS. The > original > > > > > > > > Palestinian > > > > > > > > > Arafat, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, found himself, in the > mid- > > > > > > > > 1930's, > > > > > > > > > confronting a powerful coalition of Palestinians and > Israelis > > > > > > > > intent on > > > > > > > > > establishing what they then called "a democratic Palestinian > > > > > > > > state," meaning > > > > > > > > > a secular democracy free of British rule. The Grand Mufti > > > > > > reacted > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > committing the worst single massacre of Palestinians in > > > > > > Palestinian > > > > > > > > > history - he slaughtered 12,000 Palestinians in a few weeks > in > > > > > > 1937, > > > > > > > > > Palestine's leading commercial and democratic lights. He > then > > > > > > > > joined up > > > > > > > > > with Hitler and tried to engineer Rommel's taking of > Jerusalem. > > > > > > > > That's how > > > > > > > > > this war actually started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And that horseshit about the Israelis stealing all the land > > > > > > > > conveniently > > > > > > > > > ignores 1947 UN Resolution 242, which was immedately > accepted by > > > > > > > > Israel - > > > > > > > > > which gave 67% of the land to Palestine. Palestine's > reaction > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > to try to > > > > > > > > > "finish the job that Hitler started." Sharon lived this > > > > > > history. > > > > > > > > Ask Hanan > > > > > > > > > Ashrawi what she thinks of Arafat's fascist government. > Israel > > > > > > > > faces a > > > > > > > > > massive, maniacal, covert fascist movement bent on genocide, > a > > > > > > > > movement that > > > > > > > > > extends far beyond Palestine. A movement that uses "the > poor > > > > > > > > Palestinians" > > > > > > > > > in as maudlin a way as possible. Fascism is always maudlin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Russell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:58 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] Re: Americans can't see why they are > hated! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are so many specific US policies that can be brought > up > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > context, but what ties it all together for me is that the > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > the two parties assume that the effect of US policy abroad > is > > > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > > > not a campaign issue. Not once was it mentioned in a > debate > > > > > > or on > > > > > > > > > > the stump. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Brian Downing Quig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I am in complete agreement with this writer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,551036,00.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Americans can't see why they are hated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Americans cannot ignore what their government does > > > > > > > > > > > abroad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Special report: Terrorism in the US > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seumas Milne > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday September 13, 2001 > > > > > > > > > > > The Guardian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks > > > > > > > > > > > on civilian > > > > > > > > > > > workers in New York and Washington, it has become > > > > > > > > > > > painfully clear > > > > > > > > > > > that most Americans simply don't get it. From the > > > > > > > > > > > president to > > > > > > > > > > > passersby on the streets, the message seems to be > > > > > > > > > > > the same: this is > > > > > > > > > > > an inexplicable assault on freedom and democracy, > > > > > > > > > > > which must be > > > > > > > > > > > answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as > > > > > > > > > > > someone can > > > > > > > > > > > construct a credible account of who was actually > > > > > > > > > > > responsible. > > > > > > > > > > > Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But > > > > > > > > > > > any glimmer of > > > > > > > > > > > recognition of why people might have been driven > > > > > > > > > > > to carry out such > > > > > > > > > > > atrocities, sacrificing their own lives in the > > > > > > > > > > > process - or why the > > > > > > > > > > > United States is hated with such bitterness, not > > > > > > > > > > > only in Arab and > > > > > > > > > > > Muslim countries, but across the developing world > > > > > > > > > > > - seems almost > > > > > > > > > > > entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much to hope > > > > > > > > > > > that, as rescue > > > > > > > > > > > workers struggle to pull firefighters from the > > > > > > > > > > > rubble, any but a > > > > > > > > > > > small minority might make the connection between > > > > > > > > > > > what has been > > > > > > > > > > > visited upon them and what their government has > > > > > > > > > > > visited upon large > > > > > > > > > > > parts of the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But make that connection they must, if such > > > > > > > > > > > tragedies are not to be > > > > > > > > > > > repeated, potentially with even more devastating > > > > > > > > > > > consequences. US > > > > > > > > > > > political leaders are doing their people no > > > > > > > > > > > favours by reinforcing > > > > > > > > > > > popular ignorance with self-referential rhetoric. > > > > > > > > > > > And the echoing > > > > > > > > > > > chorus of Tony Blair, whose determination to bind > > > > > > > > > > > Britain ever closer > > > > > > > > > > > to US foreign policy ratchets up the threat to our > > > > > > > > > > > own cities, will > > > > > > > > > > > only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will calls > > > > > > > > > > > for the defence > > > > > > > > > > > of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel > > > > > > > > > > > Huntington's > > > > > > > > > > > poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation > > > > > > > > > > > between the west > > > > > > > > > > > and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and > > > > > > > > > > > hypocrisy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his > > > > > > > > > > > opinion of western > > > > > > > > > > > civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since > > > > > > > > > > > George Bush's father > > > > > > > > > > > inaugurated his new world order a decade ago, the > > > > > > > > > > > US, supported by > > > > > > > > > > > its British ally, bestrides the world like a > > > > > > > > > > > colossus. Unconstrained > > > > > > > > > > > by any superpower rival or system of global > > > > > > > > > > > governance, the US giant > > > > > > > > > > > has rewritten the global financial and trading > > > > > > > > > > > system in its own > > > > > > > > > > > interest; ripped up a string of treaties it finds > > > > > > > > > > > inconvenient; sent > > > > > > > > > > > troops to every corner of the globe; bombed > > > > > > > > > > > Afghanistan, Sudan, > > > > > > > > > > > Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United > > > > > > > > > > > Nations; maintained > > > > > > > > > > > a string of murderous embargos against > > > > > > > > > > > recalcitrant regimes; and > > > > > > > > > > > recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's > > > > > > > > > > > 34-year illegal military > > > > > > > > > > > occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the > > > > > > > > > > > Palestinian intifada > > > > > > > > > > > rages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, > > > > > > > > > > > the east coast > > > > > > > > > > > carnage was the fruit of the Clinton > > > > > > > > > > > administration's Munich-like > > > > > > > > > > > appeasement of the Palestinians, the mind boggles > > > > > > > > > > > as to what US > > > > > > > > > > > Republicans imagine to be a Churchillian response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is this record of unabashed national egotism > > > > > > > > > > > and arrogance that > > > > > > > > > > > drives anti-Americanism among swaths of the > > > > > > > > > > > world's population, for > > > > > > > > > > > whom there is little democracy in the current > > > > > > > > > > > distribution of global > > > > > > > > > > > wealth and power. If it turns out that Tuesday's > > > > > > > > > > > attacks were the > > > > > > > > > > > work of Osama bin Laden's supporters, the sense > > > > > > > > > > > that the Americans > > > > > > > > > > > are once again reaping a dragons' teeth harvest > > > > > > > > > > > they themselves sowed > > > > > > > > > > > will be overwhelming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was the Americans, after all, who poured > > > > > > > > > > > resources into the 1980s > > > > > > > > > > > war against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at > > > > > > > > > > > a time when girls > > > > > > > > > > > could go to school and women to work. Bin Laden > > > > > > > > > > > and his mojahedin > > > > > > > > > > > were armed and trained by the CIA and MI6, as > > > > > > > > > > > Afghanistan was turned > > > > > > > > > > > into a wasteland and its communist leader > > > > > > > > > > > Najibullah left hanging > > > > > > > > > > > from a Kabul lamp post with his genitals stuffed > > > > > > > > > > > in his mouth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But by then Bin Laden had turned against his > > > > > > > > > > > American sponsors, while > > > > > > > > > > > US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned > > > > > > > > > > > the grotesque Taliban > > > > > > > > > > > now protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan > > > > > > > > > > > offspring, the US > > > > > > > > > > > subsequently forced through a sanctions regime > > > > > > > > > > > which has helped push > > > > > > > > > > > 4m to the brink of starvation, according to the > > > > > > > > > > > latest UN figures, > > > > > > > > > > > while Afghan refugees fan out across the world. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans > > > > > > > > > > > desperately > > > > > > > > > > > searching the debris of what is expected to be the > > > > > > > > > > > largest-ever > > > > > > > > > > > massacre on US soil - as must the killings of yet > > > > > > > > > > > more Palestinians > > > > > > > > > > > in the West Bank yesterday, or even the 2m > > > > > > > > > > > estimated to have died in > > > > > > > > > > > Congo's wars since the overthrow of the US- backed > > > > > > > > > > > Mobutu > > > > > > > > > > > regime. "What could some political thing have to > > > > > > > > > > > do with blowing up > > > > > > > > > > > office buildings during working hours?" one > > > > > > > > > > > bewildered New Yorker > > > > > > > > > > > asked yesterday. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Already, the Bush administration is assembling an > > > > > > > > > > > international > > > > > > > > > > > coalition for an Israeli-style war against > > > > > > > > > > > terrorism, as if such > > > > > > > > > > > counter-productive acts of outrage had an > > > > > > > > > > > existence separate from the > > > > > > > > > > > social conditions out of which they arise. But for > > > > > > > > > > > every "terror > > > > > > > > > > > network" that is rooted out, another will emerge - > > > > > > > > > > > until the > > > > > > > > > > > injustices and inequalities that produce them are > > > > > > > > > > > addressed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let us stay on topic and be civil. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe please go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia- > > > > > > > > drugs > > > > > > > > > > -Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org > > > > > > > > > > OM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let us stay on topic and be civil. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia- > > > > > > drugs > > > > > > > > -Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org > > > > > > > > OM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please let us stay on topic and be civil. > > > > > > To unsubscribe please go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs > > > > > > -Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org > > > > > > OM > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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