-Caveat Lector- http://sf.indymedia.org/display.php?id=100562#100565
David by nessie May 15 2001, Tue, 10:58am DAVID Five or ten minutes before the bomb went off, Judi left David Kemnitzer's house, where she had spent the night, and headed for Jim Squatter's place, where the night before, she had attended a meeting that had been hosted by Jim's affinity group, the Seeds of Peace Collective. Two nights before, Stephanie Massey, David's partner of eighteen years, had left him for Jim. It was one of those weeks. A couple years later, David and I sat down to talk about it in depth. David has been around for a while. He was a Port Huron era SDSer. These days, he's a database programmer. Before that he was a private investigator. Before that he was managing editor at Ramparts Press. He trained as an anthropologist, but there's not a lot call for anthropologists. Judi Bari thinks he's a cop. I don't think he's a cop. Jim Squatter doesn't think he's a cop. Neither does Stephanie. David is built like a bear. He has a very nice den and seventeen roommates. We sat in the immense kitchen/dining-room complex, talking. Roommates wandered in and out, living their lives. Some displayed interest in our conversation. Others ignored us. Sometimes the clatter of dishes drowned out a word or two. We were passing a joint and telling Stephanie stories when I remembered to turn on the tape recorder. David: At one point we were walking down this street in a high crime section of Oakland and we passed this biker's bar and out in front is this big pickup truck with a bumper sticker that said, "Stop rape. Say yes." Stephanie walks into the bar . . . Roommate: Oh, good . . . Nessie: I can see that. I can see that real easy. David: . . . and says, "Who's the asshole with the big blue truck out there!?!" And I'm looking around. How many people am I gonna have to kill? Nessie: Yeah, right. David: (laughs loud, for a long time) . . . . and she was in this guy's face for ten minutes, man. Nessie: Well, you know, there's this thing about being short . . . Linda: Hey! She did right! Nessie: I didn't say she didn't. I'm saying she has an attitude. When you're short . . . David: I was just counting how many I was gonna have to kill, Linda, I was not leaving. Roommate: I'm not saying that, I . . . David: I've always admired her fearlessness. Nessie: She's short and she knows it. She knows that even if somebody tries to slug her, they're gonna hesitate for an instant while they hear their mommy's voice back up in their head somewhere say, "Go pick on somebody your own size," And while they hesitate, she's got 'em. It's like wearing glasses. That half a second counts. David: Never happen. Nessie: Hey, I wouldn't mess with her. David: Short really has nothing to do with it, really. Nessie: I expect she'll explain that to me in great detail. David: I'm sure. We all have some understanding of it. Lisa once had to write a character sketch of one of her parents for one of her courses and she did it about her mother. The title of it is, "The Eleven Foot Tall Woman." Nessie: (laughs a long time) I can see that. David: Trust me. Short has nothing to do with it. (laughs) Short has something to do with Jim. Nessie: Jim's not so short. David: Jim's pretty small. Jim's not much bigger than Stephanie. Nessie: I never noticed. He seems bigger. It must be his persona. David: In one of those first base camps up there in Redwood Summer, some guy came in brandishing a knife. So Jim starts facing the guy off . . . and talking him down. Stephanie picks up a big rock and inches around behind him. And Jim is utterly surprised at this and latter he mentioned something about this and I said, like, hey, what do you want. Nessie: Jim gets that way sometimes himself. He went after a half a dozen skinheads by himself up on Haight St. once. Chased them up the street. They were running hard, too. Pretty soon he had 'em cornered in this pizza place. And in the back of this pizza place was this large Jewish biker, named Marco (well really it's Marty), and he did not like these guys. They used to goose step in front of the place, and it's his place (he owns it), and Jews don't like that kinda shit, y'know. He happened to be in the back of the place when Jim came in the front so they were sorta sandwiched in between them . . . Marco . . . Marco's Pizza, where Cybele's is now. It was over before I caught up. I can't run like I used to. David: I used to be like that. I used to go down to the Marine Corps and servicemen's bar and pick fights. Nessie: I got over that when I was young. David: (sheepishly) I was about nineteen when I . . . Nessie: (not very convincingly) Yeah, I was about, uh, er, something like that, uh, (mumble, mumble) . . . David: It's a dick thing. Nessie: Nah; it's an American thing. That's what we do here. David: It's an American dick thing. Nessie: Yeah, if we was Afghanis we'd shoot each other, right? David: (laughs) Nessie: Or Bosnians. David: Anyway . . . Nessie: OK, so Judi thinks you're a cop, right? What kind of cop? A fed? A badge cop or an informer? Or what? David: Lemme tell you what I know and how I know it. That would be the best way to do it. How do you take your coffee? Nessie: Hold the mayo. David: At the end of the summer we did this thing called Redwoodstock, which Judi and her faction were bitterly opposed to. Nessie: Really? I didn't know that. David: Yeah. They thought it was highly confrontational and provocative and dangerous. Nessie: This was, like, two months after she got blown up, right? So she was not, uh . . . David: Labor Day weekend. It was a political disagreement. Nessie: Yeah, OK. David: A legitimate political disagreement. She thought it was wrong to pose this totally hippie thing and, you know, all that kind of stuff. She thought that the march through Fortuna to Pacific Lumber was an insult to the workers there. That kind of stuff. Nessie: Right. David: All I know is that it was one of the few times during that whole campaign that (unintelligible) and I actually thought it was a way cool action. Anyway, this little blurb appeared in the Anderson Valley Advertiser about me and Squatter . . . Roommates: (giggle) Dave: (laughing) . . . and how we surrounded ourselves with naive young wimmin. Linda: (laughs loudly) David: (laughs) Linda (one of the roommates): Well, I got accused of being one of the wimmin. Nessie: (laughing) Well, I can imagine what Stephanie had to say about this. David: We definitely had to call Stephanie and tell her about this. Nessie: (laughing) I can see her kicking their door in. David: . . . how we surrounded ourselves with naive young wimmin who we manipulated with our bogus movement credentials into doing all of our dirty work and we often manipulated them between, and this is a quote, "sleazy sheets." Nessie: This is Stephanie they're talking about, right? David: I believe that she was the only person that either Jim or I was sleeping with that summer. That may be wrong, but I think that was definitely the only person I was sleeping with. I certainly wasn't manipulating any of the Seedlings into my bed. Nessie: So, uh . . . David: So I call Anderson up . . . no, wait, I didn't respond to that one. That's right; I did not respond to that. Karen Pickett from Earth First! responded to that one, I think with a really, really good letter which didn't address Jim or me at all, but addressed the (unintelligible) of wimmin in the scene. Remember that? It was a really good letter. And there were a couple of other people who wrote in and there was this big controversy thing and the controversy went on for quite some time. Anderson thinks of himself as the left wing H. L. Menkin of the modern era. He was also an early supporter and fan of Judi in the factionalization within the movement in that area. He stuck with Judi as an ally. Apparently, there is now some split between them. I've kind of given up following this stuff. Nessie: (laughs somewhat bitterly) Who's mad at who this week? That's what it's all about, right? David: I just don't care any more. Anderson . . . well . . . he has an incredible ego, and he's also, um, he does the kind of vilification that he did of me, on a fairly regular basis. He picks somebody and vilifies them and it stirs up controversy and gets people to buy his newspaper. Nessie: Well . . . uh . . . you know, David . . . the guy's gotta eat, right? You were just the lucky winner that week, that's all. David: To some extent, that's what was going on. But you know, the political stuff gets mixed in with Judi's personal stuff and Bruce's personal stuff, you know, all that kind of stuff. Layer upon layer of these things start shaping these events. Nessie: This isn't the gossip column in the local paper. This is front page news. It's the main thing that's happening in that part of the world that summer. David: Well, yes and no. He's got this column which he writes that sometimes takes up half the newspaper, which is a selection of couple of paragraph length items and they're not broken up with headlines and stuff like that. And all of the stuff about me was either in that column or the letters to the editor column. And then later there was a defense of the Redwoodstock action which was written by this womyn named Sequoia, that did appear as, like, an article. Nessie: That was the first thing that went through my mind, when you told me that story, was where's this guy get off talking about these wimmin like that, like they had no active role in events, like they're potted plants or something. If I was one of those wimmin, I would have been extremely pissed. David: They were. There were a number of them . . . well like Stephanie. She wanted to go up there and say, "Yo! I am the person, singular, who both of them are doing this with . . ." Nessie: (cracks up) That'd be a sight. David: " . . . and I stopped being naive before you got hair." (Everybody laughed a long time.) David: And Sarah from Seeds, who is naive, but is not impressionable or easy to control, and in some ways is not so naive, I mean, she's . . . Nessie: I think she's overly optimistic sometimes. David: She's got these weird airy-fairy concerns, this bizarre perspective on the world, but from a pragmatic perspective this is a womyn who knows how to get hella shit done. Nessie: For sure. Her shit's together. If she was married to Clinton, we'd have health care today. David: No, no, no. But she and Hillary could sit down and talk. And so could Stephanie, I mean, the three of them . . . Nessie: No, no, no, puh-leeeeeeze. (Everybody cracked up. What a concept. A roommate wandered in with a lit spliff, just like we needed more or something.) Nessie: It was a COINTELPRO type psy-war operation? David: No, frankly . . . Nessie: They do that kinda stuff, y'know. David: It had elements of that, but I think a lot of it was just . . . Judi, what ever her political ideology may be, Judi's political style is that there's a correct line; you split over the correct line; you build your political following around a correct line. Nessie: Sounds like Leninism to me. David: That may not be her ideology, but that's her style. And after she got blown up, she became paranoid. Nessie: Well, jesus christ, David! When they blow up your car, you start looking over your shoulder! David: There's two sides to paranoia. One is the sense of persecution, but along with that is a sense of personal power. Judi was definitely getting that stroked and it was definitely getting a little out of hand. By the end of the following summer it was way outa hand and Earth First! in northern California split real radically over it. Anyway I think she was pushing her critique of that event and the division within Earth First! and within that political community up there. In the course of one or another of these arguments there came another (unintelligible) and this one was just (intelligible) how I was known to the FBI as "The Professor" and the clear implication was that I was either an informant or an agent provocateur or somehow or another their agent. So I called Anderson . . . I guess this was, like, March of '91 . . . something like that . . . early spring of '91 . . . I called Anderson about this. I was really pissed. It might have been earlier . . . be that as it may . . . I called Anderson. I was really pissed. I was basically getting ready to go up there and (slams fist into palm) Isn't that how gentlemen used to handle libel in the old days? Something like that? Nessie: Well, yeah, right. So you hit him with a glove and . . . David: Right. And he said . . . well we got into this little argument . . . Nessie: Well, hey, it's his paper. So you yelled at Anderson and he said he got it from Judi. Nice guy. David: I thought I had cooled off, but I'd been fuming a couple days. Then I called Judi's message machine, which was the only way to communicate with her at this time, and I left a message saying, you know, Judi, this stuff is very disturbing, and I think you'd better call me. She took the "you'd better call me," as a threat. Nessie: Well now David, when you think somebody is a cop, anything they say to you is gonna sound like a threat. Haven't you ever thought somebody was a cop? David: I don't think about that kind of shit. (laughs) It's not what I do. I get snotty about this issue. I say, "I do politics. I don't do cop work." Finding out who's a cop is cop work. I do politics. I'm not interested in the conspiracies. I'm not interested in these weird little scandals. I have friends who do like you do with the Inslaw thing, you know, track this, that and the other. Like you track Wackenhut, I have a friends who track other organizations. They give me a little bit of the news and it's nice to know it, but . . . Nessie: I tried <General Hospital>; I can't get off. David: I have children. I have enough soap opera. Nessie: (cracks up) David: And the other thing is that I don't think that stuff is politically important. I think that politics is about the structure of society and culture and about the will to overcome it. I don't think it's about the machinations of all these weird groups. Nessie: So you were talking to Anderson . . . David: I guess it was at some time after I had been interviewed by Steve Talbot for his little TV show, because one of the things that convinced Bruce that I was cop was that I smoked a joint in front of Steve Talbot. Nessie: Who's Steve Talbot? David: Steve Talbot is a freelance film maker/journalist type who I happen to have known for ten or fifteen years, casually, but enough for somebody like me to smoke a joint with. At any rate, and he said that this came from Judi. I was a little bit amazed by this because prior to this, Judi and I were getting along. We were kinda like way getting along. Nessie: In, uh, the, uh, "biblical" fashion? David: No. Nessie: You don't have to get personal. I'm just trying to fill in the details. For history, David, not for prurient interest. David: No, but we got along real well. I wouldn't have been . . . at least I . . . you know, we'd only known each other over the course of the few weeks we'd been part of the . . . Roommate: It was really intense there. David: Well, also, we clicked. You know you click with some people and some people you don't. So I thought about it for a few days and I called Judi. I thought that the message I conveyed was, yeah, this was something I was upset and angry about, but I thought I did it in a concerned manner. Judi thought I did it in a threatening manner. So all of this shit then came to a head again later in the spring when the second Redwood Summer was in the planning. And the northern California Earth First! people negotiated Seed's cooperation and stipulated that I was not to be involved. And then this whole thing came up again. Nessie: Well, y'know Dave, it's better that political groups be overly cautious David: I've been doing this a very long time and nobody ever called me a cop. Nessie: Everybody gets upset at that. There's no point to getting upset. It gets you nothing and makes things worse. Besides, it's better we be overly suspicious because we are infiltrated to hell. David: a conflict between Judi and me. If it was a matter of her trust and her trust issues . . . Nessie: Well look, to me, the most important part this whole thing is that despite all the interpersonal tension and the fucking bomb attack, that things went on, that Redwood Summer happened and trust was intrinsic to it. How did you all sit down and plan things not knowing which one of you was a cop and who might get blown up next? How did you do that? David: Well, of course, I had no idea that anybody thought I was a cop, until later. Nessie: But you knew that you might get murdered and you assumed that there was somebody there from the other side. You must have. David: Well, see, again, I never thought about it. I promise you that I . . . Nessie: Even after they blew Judi up!?! Somebody is at your house and the next thing happens is they're blown up, and you don't think about maybe you're in danger!?! David: Oh, I thought about the fact that I was in danger. That's why I let them search my house. Nessie: What about later, during all of the actions, when there were snipers and stuff? Didn't you ever, in the course of a meeting, when you personally were planning where you were gonna be, in front of a lot of people, in front of a presumed who would know where you were, didn't you feel like, in the back of your head, that maybe you were walking into a trap and maybe this was gonna be the last thing you ever did? David: Oh, yeah. Especially when we did the . . . OK, look, I'm not normally the kind of person who puts themselves in the front of the line. It's not a courage issue; it's a domination issue. It's a personal power issue. I'm not the person who steps in front of the camera or the microphones either. I don't think it's appropriate. Nessie: Wimmin's work. David: No. Other people's work. Nessie: (laughs) I prefer wimmin doing it, personally. Men should shut up. Wimmin should talk. Men screw it up. That's been my experience. David: Well that's part of it. Men should shut up for a while. I did that trip already. I'm not into accruing for myself perks, or what ever it is, of individual leadership. I genuinely don't believe in routine individual leadership. You know, after the Redwoodstock thing there was an understanding that there was gonna be a lot of negative reaction and they did not want one of the local people to be the face on the tube. And basically they nominated me. Nessie: Why? To protect the local person? David: Yes. Nessie: If it had been a local person, wouldn't it have carried more meaning, more weight? David: That was the debate. Nessie: OK, so in the course of that debate . . . David: They opted for safety. Nessie: Safety became an issue, and it was the deciding factor? David: Yeah. Nessie: I woulda voted that way. David: I was walking in the front of the line in Fortuna. I was walking in front. That's what I did. Nessie: Scary. David: Yep. The reason I walked in front was because I thought there was a strong possibility that the first person who went in was gonna get shot. And this was my call, and . . . it was appropriate. Nessie: There's worse ways to die. And you are gonna die somehow. (long pause) David: I learned a long time ago . . . and I'm not an overwhelmingly, physically brave person; I think too fast, and I have a vivid imagination. I've experienced physical violence both accidental and intentional, you know, people and objects suddenly come at you, and you know . . . Nessie: (laughs) Yep. David: And I've been in car wrecks and I've been beaten up and I've been knifed and I've been shot and . . . . Nessie: There's so many things that can go wrong, David. I could start from zero in any situation and go on literally for ever and never get near the end of the list. I mean, like, somebody could kick that door in, right this instant, and I would not be the least surprised. Startled, yes; surprised never. I mean like, shit happens, you know. It's happened to me. David: (looks at door, pause) Nah. Never happen. (pause) So it's not a physical courage issue it's a question of how you deal with your fear. I learned that you deal with your fear by holding on to somebody else. You deal with your fear by becoming part of a mass of people who are doing the same thing. And that that is the only way to get past the fear. It's the only way that I know to get past fear of physical pain, emotional pain, it doesn't matter. It's the only way I know. Nessie: There's number of ways, but that's the best. There's nothing else like a mob at your side. It does get the spine up like little else can. David: That's right. And I've been doing this for a long time. I know how to be there. I learned how to be there. That's one of the things that they taught in the SCLC stuff, and you know, I know how to be there. I know how to put it out for other people. That's basically a lot of my role during that stuff was, you know, I was the person who was calm. I was the person who wasn't thrown off by any of that. Some of it is just a matter of control, and part of it's just getting into a place that's, like, that's just not what's going on in your mind. you know. Nessie: I always just figure that you are gonna die; get used to it. The best you can hope for is to die looking good. David: I will die an old person, in bed, and not alone. Nessie: I'm dying at ninety five, shot in the back by a jealous husband. David: (laughs a very long time) (We were interrupted by the phone. I chatted with the roommates to pass the time. Eventually he hung up.) Nessie: So tell me about Earth First! and their role in the campaign. Give me a feel for the structure. David: Earth First! doesn't actually have a structure. They planned it that way and their proud of it and I agree. Nessie: It keeps them running around loose. Most of them, any way. David: As an anarchist, of course, I think that network based organizations are the wave of the future. There's a basic, fundamental political split within Earth First! Nessie: Which is? David: There is a substantial portion of the Earth First! membership, less in northern California and the north west coast area, but the rest of the country where Earth First! is a big active organization, that are not political. They don't have a generalized left wing political perspective like we identify northern California Earth First! or most parts of the progressive eco-movement with. In many ways these people in Earth First! are like the people in the Audubon Society except they're extremists. But politically, many of them are racist. There's a lot of macho, sexist bullshit. There's very little in the way of internationalism. There's the whole Foreman perspective. Nessie: Just because somebody don't have your politics don't mean that they don't have politics. They have -their- politics. You know, the original Nazis were elected in part because they had a strong eco plank in their platform. David: Yeah, the cult of nature, naturalism, and all that kind of stuff. Nessie: They had strong anti-vivisection and anti-abortion planks, too. David: Yeah. Nessie: And they got those constituencies. David: Hitler was a vegetarian. Nessie: You know about the Wander Vogel? David: Yeah. Those guys. But Judi comes out of a traditional left wing political perspective. Her parents were labor organizers in some kind of socialist party. And her approach . . . you know that for most Earth First! people, all loggers are just flat out the enemy. Judi's approach was that the workers in the logging industry are victims, of a different sort, of the same thing that the forest itself is the victim of. That's her fundamental political perspective. Most importantly, it's her organizing perspective. Nessie: I can see that. David: It's certainly the basis on which, for example, people with real strong sort of left wing perspective, like myself and Squatter, thought that Redwood Summer was so cool, is because in addition to the environmental stuff there was this element of speaking to the workers. And the powerful transformative process of Redwood Summer in a bunch of ways, was doing just that. If Judi and I had ever gotten a chance to talk about the Redwoodstock, which she considered a hippy-dippy slap in the workers face, I would have told her that at some point you have to look these guys in the eye and say we're not afraid of you, and that's as much a dialog with those people as, for example, the dialog that took place in Fort Bragg, where we ended up sharing our rally with people who disagreed with us and having a big public debate in the middle of Highway 1 while traffic was stopped for an hour. Nessie: (laughs) I'm sorry I missed that. David: It was an awesome experience. Nessie: I can imagine. David: I think that to some extent, Judi's reaction to the Redwoodstock . . . It was a highly unfortunate name, which was Dowerless choice not mine . . . some of her reaction to that was based on the fact that she therefore started to react to us like we were part of the Foreman faction, the merely environmental, apolitical eco-faction of Earth First! I would have happily argued with her about that. But be that as it may, you know. I think that that's an important part of the background of the whole thing, you know, that Judi was highly controversial within Earth First! and the whole Redwood Summer thing was highly controversial within Earth First! There is in essence now a split, and there was at that time a very active split between those two factions within Earth First!, basically centered around Foreman as the key figure in the non, or less political, or differently political faction, and then there's . . . Nessie: Look. They have a left wing and they have a right wing. David: I don't even want to put it in terms of left and right. Nessie: David, if there's anything on earth you can put in those terms, it's them. David: OK, maybe you're right. Nessie: Well, look, some of them actively identify with the left wing of the rest of the political scene, and some of them actively identify with the right wing . . . David: No. What it is is that a lot of them don't identify themselves as "political." They identify themselves instead as saviors of the earth. My interpretation of a certain amount of Judi's reaction to me on the cop stuff is that she had that couple of months of isolation, in pain, and undoubtedly sitting there obsessing on the details of the event and the events leading up to it. I mean, I certainly would have. And then in the context of a political disagreement, those things sort of mutually colored each other and she began to see me in general as some sort of provocateur. But the personality issues have more to do with how she dealt with the stuff, rather than her opposition to things like Redwoodstock. Although, frankly, some of her opposition to Redwoodstock is that nobody asked her. Nessie: People do get touchy about that. Especially somebody in a situation like hers. She was isolated and the center of attention. David: What was passing me off at that time . . . by the way, probably ninety percent of why I left Seeds . . . was the characterization of me as threatening. I was finding out that all these people were talking about me as intimidating. And what I realized is that at some level, and I think it's mostly an age thing, frankly, though to some extent also a culture thing . . . Nessie: You're a big guy, David, a big guy. David: I'm the gentlest person you've ever met. Nessie: No. Me. I am. I'm the gentlest person you ever met. I have witnesses. Nurturing, too. David: I don't mean just peaceful, I mean self consciously, pro-actively, purposefully gentle as a position I've taken in life, that I had to learn to do. Nessie: You get more mileage out of it; that's a fact. David: And the other thing is that I believe very strongly that as men we have responsibility to reconstruct certain elements of what being male means. Nessie: I agree. David: I also believe very strongly that one of the things that have happened in our little subculture is that people's attempts to do that are not recognized or understood. In some ways they are . . . Nessie: If they come up in a meeting, and that's what the meeting's about. But if it happens at like a party or in a living room, people don't think twice. It's just a human being treating another human being like a human being, and that's the way it's supposed to be and it just doesn't register in our consciousness because that's the way it's supposed to be. It's stuff that ain't supposed to be that registers. Now if you're having a meeting about how we're gonna start treating each other like human beings, and somebody does it, we talk about it for an hour. But if you're not focused on it, we don't notice it because, hey, why should we, it's so perfectly natural. That's the natural way is for people to treat each other is as individual human beings with feelings just like you and all that -other- stuff people do is an artifice. David: But the truth of the matter is is that it's as much a struggle to get past that artifice for men as it is for wimmin. Nessie: Like I find it really hard not to interrupt people no matter what their gender. When they get to the right point I wanna cut in. And I have to restrain myself from interrupting wimmin. If I only interrupt men, at the end of the meeting, all of the wimmin love me . . . David: (laughs) Nessie: . . . if I do nothing else but that, 'cuz guys cut wimmin off all the time, again and again and again and it's just not that difficult not to. I figure I'm smarter than the other guys, 'cuz I'd rather have wimmin like me at the end of the meeting, than have the last word. Am I right? David: Right. Nessie: I figure, if wimmin like you, you're living your life right. To hell with what guys think. Unless they're holding a gun on me, or something. Other than that, fuck 'em. I couldn't care less. David: And the people who were talking about me being intimidating were the same people who were figuratively and literally curling up in my lap and thinking of me as their daddy. I realized that what I was for these people was a stereotype. Nessie: Well, yeah, OK. David: These people had never seen me angry. They'd never seen me yell. They've never seen me physically threaten anybody. They'd never seen me be as overbearing as I often am in conversation, because I was pretty careful around them. Nessie: You're different at meetings. David: What? Nessie: You're different at meetings. You're very civilized at meetings. David: That's right. You know in a conversation I'll argue like a motherfucker; I love it. Nessie: Well, going to school at Chicago's what did it to you, y'know . . . David: Well having grown up with all those commies and all them Jewish scientists and, you know, all that other shit. For me it's a recreational thing and it's the dialectic of how things get produced and don't sit there and stare at me because you do it too you fucking New York son of a bitch. Nessie: Yeah, I know. It's fun. Productive, too. David: (laughs) But I behave in meetings! I behave in meetings, formal and informal. Nessie: Yeah. David: I don't want to be in a position of power. I hand power off. I delegate. I don't try to ram my decisions down people's throats. I don't get on a high horse and ride it. I work for compromise. These people had no reason do deal with me that way except for my size and my age and at one point one person says my voice. Well, excuse me. Nessie: Well, you're loud, David. I know because I'm loud too and I catch flak for it, too. Plus I got that bike out there so I get it double. I intimidate people just standing around. I look like the guy on TV that beat up the guy on TV that looked like them. People have trouble telling earth from TV sometimes. You know what I tell 'em? I say, "If you're intimidated by me, give up trying to overthrow the government." All: (laugh) Nessie: Y'know, 'cuz that's the facts of the matter. If you ain't got the moxie to tell me to sit down and shut up, the cops are gonna walk all over you. Dave: You know, when I called Judi . . . by the time I . . . you know, I waited a couple of days and I thought about it and I said, you know, shit, she's thinking, I've known somebody maybe fifteen hours or twenty-four hours spread out over the course of six weeks and I spend a night in his spare room and in the morning I get blown up and I'm sitting here, y'know, in agonizing pain, cut off, able to relate to the world through very narrow channels, going over this shit, over and over and over again in my mind . . . . (pause) That would have been fine. Had Judi called me, I would have treated it as a respectful inquiry. There are people that Judi knows who know me for a long time. They're people like Sequoia and Mohawk and stuff like that. When this thing finally came to a head during that second Redwood Summer, toward the end of that second summer, there was this big community meeting about it, and people like Mohawk and Sequoia are standing up there are saying things like, "I've known David three times longer than I've known you. If it comes down to that, who do you think I'm gonna trust!?!" Nessie: It's hard not to be mistrustful when we know we're infiltrated and they are using terrorism against us and we know they have a very long history of sowing division on a personal basis. David: It's why I've tried to take a position that, yes, I'll cooperate with her legal case. I've tried in the intervening time, you know once in a while I'll get a call from Simpich about the case or something like that. And when this thing first came up I talked to Simpich and some other people and said I'd like to take a mediated approach here. I understand that she reacted to my message in a certain kinda way. I'm even willing to cop to not having been as cool on the phone as I probably thought I was being. But, you know, this other stuff has got to be dealt with. I'm sorry, but I'm in a position to deal with it. I mean "bogus movement credentials" or not, I go back a long time and people she has every reason in the world to trust should be able to speak for me. I mean Jets Grant went up to my old man and said you know, look, this is what's being talked about and my old man says, you know there's not a period of more than thirty days when I haven't seen David. You know it's like, you know, this is just not a happening thing, y'know what I mean? Nessie: You're whole family has impeccable credentials, yeah. But you know, David, when the bombs start going off and the bullets come whizzing by your ear, if you don't mistrust everyone immediately, you're gonna die. You have to start off mistrusting everybody and then go one at a time and verify . . . David: Actually, you and I could argue about this. Nessie: Well, we could. People say I'm paranoid. But I'm also running around loose, and I haven't been shot or blown up yet. And I haven't been sold out for a long time, either, and they're sorry they did it. I've been slandered a little, but hey . . . David: I've been slandered, libeled, shot, beaten up, stabbed . . . Nessie: Well, I have been beaten up, yeah, I've been beaten up alright. David: Y'know, all that kinda shit. I was victim of a COINTELPRO operation. Nessie: Small world. When they get you? David: In '68, there was all of this tension within SDS between Progressive Labor and the frees. And so one day, just before the election I wrote this little leaflet called "Wallace and the workers." I'll find a copy of it for you somewhere. It was a perfect imitation of PLY. I even printed it up ugly like they did. Basically it said that although we had some differences with Comrade Wallace on the "Negro Question," you know, and so forth, and so on. I handed out like fifty copies at a SDS meeting. Everybody there knew it was a joke. Nessie: Did they beat you up? David: Not yet. So there's all this turmoil and about a week later I hand out another one denouncing the writers of the previous one. Then they beat me up. Nessie: That's them alright. I never got beat up by them but I did get knocked down stairs by one, once. He strait armed me, like this. David: Three big guys with neatly trimmed beards and razor cut hair cuts and overcoats came to my house at three o'clock in the morning, kicked in the front door and pulled a gun on me while they jumped up and down on me. I got thirty-seven stitches in my skull. Nessie: PLY? David: I don't think so, not now. Nessie: Well It could have been COINTELPRO. It could just been PLY on their own. They'd do things like that. They were just over educated thugs, that's all. One of them knocked me down a flight of goddam stairs over nothing. I might have been being obnoxious to them, but I wasn't being threatening. They were being threatening. I had my hands in my pocket. It was a crazy night. The national guard was downtown. Tear gas and bayonets. Everybody was very uptight. David: And you know, the thing was, I wasn't being anything other than obnoxious. Nessie: I wasn't being obnoxious. I was objecting to something somebody said. He was the one being obnoxious. People were yelling and . . . David: Well that became part . . . in the late spring of '69 SDS split and that was one of the issues that people screamed and yelled about. And I now believe that it was a COINTELPRO operation. Nessie: It could very well have been. David: I've never bothered to find out. Nessie: You'll never get to the bottom of COINTELPRO. David: I've never done the FOIL thing. Nessie: Me either. Why bother. David: Of course I have the ultimate nightmare, I send in for my file and they wont have one. (laughs) Nessie: You're never gonna get an uncensored file. And besides, you don't just have one dossier. That's the problem. The FBI has a dossier. The DEW has a dossier. The DIVA has a dossier. Wackenhut has a dossier. The Mazda has a dossier. Anybody with the PROMIS software has a dossier on you, any time they want to. There's a -lot- of bootleg PROMIS copies floating around. David: Well you know, my feeling about these issues has always been that the correct way to respond to infiltration and penetration is to have nothing to hide. Nessie: Me to. If you have nothing to hide, a sense of humor, and the least bit of creativity, you want to be infiltrated! It's the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Where else can you meet a real live spy and stick it in his ear? David: Right. Nessie: It's fun talking to spies. David: And if you think about the things that have been done in the name of chasing spies and the tremendous damage that's been done . . . Nessie: And the energy wasted. David: . . . spying on ourselves. Of course, looking for spies, I've always taken the attitude that I'm not interested. What it's about is mass struggle . . . Nessie: Yeah. David: . . . and, you know, uh, secret politics doesn't help mass struggle and the secret police can't stop it. This is what I believe about it and I'm no longer into clandestine bullshit. Now I was at one point in my life and when I went through my period of rethinking all this shit in the early seventies I decided never again. Nessie: It didn't work. David: It didn't work. It was stupid and it perverted and destroyed a lot of the tremendous, tremendous energy and power which we had generated. I was as much a part of that as anybody who didn't end up on the ten most wanted list and I deeply regret it. It's one of the three or four things in my life that I believe I really did the wrong thing. Nessie: It was like 1905. We botched it. We just fucked up. David: Oh, I don't think it was gonna be the revolution anyway. Revolution takes a very long time. What we did was move it up a notch. Nessie: We botched it. We gave up to soon. We gave up too easy. David: We lost a lot of momentum. We lost a lot of people. We lost a lot of resources. We lost a lot of creativity and power. And we lost . . . we put up a screen around the genuine insight and powerful political understanding which motivated the New Left. People are only now beginning to grope back toward that political analysis which was the correct one, and still is. It was a bad thing. It was also in the cards. We were a bunch of kids with no leadership except for these ego-freak assholes who wanted to get themselves in the paper who were basically also a bunch of kids with no leadership who were not prepared for the fact that revolution does not take a week . . . Nessie: . . . or leaders. David: . . . and that's what we were not prepared for. Nessie: Politics is numbers. Period. End of story. Mass action is politics, mass action and mass inaction. The other stuff ain't. Clandestine politics and crime don't mix. For one thing, there's two sets of cops on your tail. The more people you have involved in a crime, which is what clandestine activity is, the more people you got involved, the sooner you go to jail, OK? The ideal crime has one participant, you, and you don't tell anybody. Well, this is inherently contradictory to mass movement. That's the way it is. I wish it was the other way. Hell, I wish bombs worked. At least they're simple to operate. If bombs worked, I'd throw bombs. I'd be out there right now, doing it. But we tried that all stuff a hundred years ago, and it didn't work then, either. We have to try new things. At least now we know what don't work. You can't blow up a social relationship. David: The Bolsheviks did all that clandestine stuff. They won. We lost. Nessie: Not yet, we haven't. We're just having a few set backs, that's all. It's gonna take centuries. Don't write us off yet. The Bolsheviks lost already, and it's only been seventy five years. They're the losers, a flash in the pan. We're just getting our wind. David: Yeah. The revolution wont be televised and it wont be led by a bunch of generals hidden in some maze of tunnels somewhere either. And in the second interview I had with the cops they threw a lot of my old stuff at me. That was the position I took about it then. I said that was then; this is now. And I look upon that stuff as not even the errors of my youth. I'm not that patronizing about it. I look upon it as I was participating in the politics that was going on, and yeah, I was twenty, twenty-one , twenty-two years old at that time, "young and dumb and full of cut." But I was also in that moment and in that time and that was the way those contradictions played itself out. Nessie: Hey, I didn't know what else to do. We sat around and shot the shit and that is what we come up with. It didn't work. So we try something else. And we keep trying. David: Anybody who has been in the movement for a long time has experienced the contradiction of on one hand you wish people would listen to you because you feel that your experience has brought you a bit of wisdom, particularly if you are the sort of person who works at gaining it. Nessie: Particularly of you are wise. David: Yeah. Which I think I am. Nessie: Oh, me too. We're wiser than hell, David, but we ain't wise enough. Not yet. We still got a lot to learn. And people think that we the wise got it made, you know. But the fact of the matter is we catch as much shit as anybody else. We fuck a bunch of it up, too. David: One of the things about wisdom is that . . . Nessie: It's so hard to convince people you're not arrogant, you're not vain. But we're really very humble about it. David: I'm not humble about my wisdom. I'm pretty fucking vain about it (Both crack up, take long time to recover) David: I worked hard for it. I studied hard. I've gone through a lot. I've suffered some shit, you know: I've sought it. The hard way. I am arrogant about it in a lot of ways. I have to be self conscious about not trying to make everybody listen to me all the time. Nessie: That's the hard part, huh? David: Especially because I can. If you know about something a little better, you can make people listen. Nessie: It's hard. I try to lure 'em in with a little gossip. People like gossip. Then when I get their attention, bloom, I hit 'em with a salvo of unsolicited advice. Some times they listen and some times they don't. I don't mind if they don't listen, 'cuz then I get to say "I told you so," later. Either way. I don't care. I know that if they know they'll get to some more gossip later they'll keep listening when you get to the part where you explain the politics. 'Cuz a lot of people just skip that part, and I don't want them to. David: I can be pretty powerful with words and I can be very persuasive. I can have a pretty controlling effect on people, and I am self conscious of that. It's part of being an anarchist activist for thirty years, and getting shit for it and learning and struggling around it. Nessie: Well yeah. But also, I made a bunch of mistakes. David: Oh, me too, believe me . . . Nessie: . . . and if a little nudge in the ribs with my elbow would save somebody all the hassle I've been through . . . David: . . . and I'm perfectly willing to talk about a lot of them. Some of them are nobody else's business but my own. (We talked for a while about things that are none of your business, part of which revolved around the use of the record the phone company keeps of who talks to whom, as an investigative tool.) David: You know, all these people pick up their phones and they have weird clicks on 'em and shit and they think it's a tap, I tell 'em, look, the way you tap a phone these days is you go to a console in the switching station, which you must have a special key for, and then you type in the instruction, the (unintelligible) echoes the line to another switch, that's all. It's completely undetectable by any mechanical means at all. Nessie: If your line is clicking, they're trying to tell you something. It's like a tail: If you see it, it's 'cuz they want you to. David: If your phone's clicking, it probably means your phone's fucked up. Or it means that a private organization is tapping your phone. Nessie: Well the dividing line between public and private is kinda hazy here. That's part of the story. David: Name me a private organization that doesn't have insider access, an organization that can not call up the detective department and say we need a tap. Nessie: You mean a lone, lame gum shoe, as opposed to Wackenhut? David: Yeah. Nessie: Any FBI investigation, and this was an FBI investigation around this thing, has got to employ Wackenhut assets. David: I don't think they used them on this. Nessie: They're the same guys. They work together. They're friends. There's a revolving door employment policy. David: Yeah. Nessie: Wackenhut and Seeds have a long standing dispute. David: But I don't think they had any active Wackenhut operatives on this. Nessie: What makes you think that? David: My read on this whole thing is very different from everybody else's. I really thing that the Lord's Avenger did it. And if it wasn't that Lord's Avenger it was some other one of that very, very small group of nuts. And I think . . . part of this has to do with my general belief that while there are conspiracies, there's no Conspiracy. Nessie: There's a bunch of overlapping conspiracies, overlapping and competing. David: Dinky little conspiracies, even big little conspiracies that are aimed at specific things, but there is no One Big Conspiracy To Rule The World. Nessie: Right. If there were only one, It wouldn't have to conspire, it'd rule. David: We're dealing with structural phenomena. Nessie: I think we're dealing with many, many more than "One Big Conspiracy To Rule The World", and that's why we're as free as we are, because they're so busy plotting against each other. David: I believe that if you take a look at what was going on there for a few months before Redwood summer, you see the timber industry in particular, not just the timber industry, but pretty much the timber industry, and local law enforcement hyping like hell, hyping like crazy the fact that this is going to be dangerous to workers. Nessie: Well, now, I know a story about danger to workers, if you wanna hear. David: There's only been one incident in the whole history of Earth First! actions where there was one person was injured by a spike in the tree, and that was on an unshielded saw. Nessie: That saw blade had a crack in it. The guy on the previous shift left a note about it, and the spike was end on. That means it had to have been placed after the tree had been cut and dragged back to the yard. Earth First! didn't do it. David: The guy who was injured has testified against Louisiana Pacific. Nessie: He lost his job over it. David: He also won a substantial out of court settlement and Judi Bari helped him do it. Nessie: Tim Redmond interviewed him and said that there were over fifty articles about him and Tim was the only reporter who actually talked to him. And I talk to Tim, and Tim talks to Russell and Foreman. And I talk to . . . and so on. And all on the phone. David: He's not an Earth First! person, but he's more pro than anti. And was before. Nessie: The next day in the hospital the company said, we'll put you on tour, speaking against Earth First! He said fuck off, and they fired him. Dave: Yup. Nessie: He was also a complainer and a trouble maker. He wanted them to make the saw safe, for one thing. Told them he was gonna quit if they didn't. Dave: But the thing is, they really hyped it. They created, and they went to great lengths to create, an atmosphere of hysteria, I think with the assumption that things were gonna get out of hand. I think they knew that Nessie: Well, somebody was trying to spread fear. That was a terror bombing. That bomb was set to maim, not to kill. It's terrorism. Terror is the whole point, not body count. David: Wait. Back off again and look at this. You got an area which is culturally polarized and has been for over twenty-five years. Polarization has never ever stopped. You got a radical right-wing redneck culture and a pretty radical left-wing hippie culture right next to each other. People get by on a face to face basis but when ever there's an opportunity for real clashing between the cultures as collective groups, it occurs. Nessie: Yes. This is true. David: I've been hanging around this and that area my whole fucking life. Nessie: This is true. David: You've got probably the fourth or fifth largest concentration of real heavy duty right wing survival nuts in the country up there. You know, there's Idaho, Washington and Massachusetts, Utah, Four Corners area, and then Mendocino/Humboldt. And that's about how it goes, in terms of distribution of those folks. You've got an area that's been real slick on all kinds of cultural values for a long time. You got an area where people are losing their jobs at a massive rate and industry is just destroying itself. And these people are trying to blame it on the eco-freaks for a long time and they pumped it way up and they started talking about how these people are gonna come out and destroy your equipment and you're gonna get hurt and all that kinda shit, and they pumped that hysteria like crazy. I think that they genuinely and honestly believe that something like this was gonna happen but I don't believe that they went out and paid anybody to do it. It's also the case that the Phoebes in particular have real, real heavy infiltration of these right-wing nut groups. The ruling class doesn't like the right wing nuts any more than the left wing nuts. They want everything to run smooth and be broke red and negotiated . . . Nessie: They're arming them! David: They're arming the left wing nuts too. Nessie: That was different. One, it was a long time ago; two, they gave them funky bomb detonators so they'd blow themselves up, which they did. These guys are supplied with 486s through the State Defense Forces. It was part of Iran-contra. David: Yeah, I know. Nessie: (aside to roommates) Thousands of 486s disappeared during an exercise called Rex 84. They were issued for the exercise and only half were collected afterwards. They fudged the books. Later when they got caught, they tried to make it look like the 486s had gone to the Contras in Central America. I don't believe it. They went to the Contras right here in America. A couple turned up in a raid on an Aryan Nations compound in Idaho that had been originally issued to State Defense Force members in Utah. David: They also monitor the fuck outa them. Nessie: Yeah. Right. They do. David: These right-wing nuts are there to do exactly what they did vise a vise Judi Bari. They're not there to take state power and that's why they monitor the fuck outa them. If the right wing nuts look like they're taking state power, you will find they get squashed. Real quick. What they're out there for is to be a terror factor to counter-balance what all of these folks feel, is the potential political power of the left. These people are extremely honest about what they think is the political potential of the left. I think what's important here, though the totally polarized nature of the cultural scene up there. Nessie: Could you clarify that for me? I didn't go up there. I don't know any of these people. I'm clueless. I spent most of that summer down here working on the mind control conference. David: What you have is you got this area that was essentially a redneck part of the world, and loggers are rednecks, believe be. And fishermen, and so forth. It's a redneck part of the world until the early sixties when various kind of hippie types started moving up there in large numbers. They've always had some tourist business and arty forty types who'd go up, particularly to Mendocino. But the area as a whole got this big influx of hippie types in the beginning of the early sixties. In some ways the two cultures have successfully adapted to one another. On a regular basis, on a day to day basis, it works pretty much fine. But there are big areas of confrontation. The conflict over logging coexists with other conflicts over life style and values and class. Logging is a good job or potentially a good job. If you're successful at it, you can make good money. It's not a flipping burgers for the tourists kinda job. It's more like an old aristocracy of labor job, once you work your way up. Mill workers are drones just like anybody else. But if you work your way up, you can become an independent business man. People do it. It's not an unheard of thing. So there's a bunch of conflicts. The conflict over forest policy is, the French structuralist term or it is "over determined." There's a lot of stuff that focuses in on that single contradiction, and that's what I meant. I mean there's some things that give some other elements a personal bitterness and bigotry. And it's also real important to remember that part of the reason that there's not as much, in my mind, a conspiracy. The problems of the northern California forest are the problems of all north-west forest. They cut it, really, to the bone. And the industry is becoming increasing industrialized. It's employing fewer people per tree. Ten percent as many people are cutting ten times as many trees. These people are seeing the base of their lifestyle destroyed and eroded in two ways. The jobs are going away and the trees are going away. And the element of desperation is there whether the eco freaks are there or not. Whole communities are dying. The life style is going away. The culture is going away. And these people know that. They're the last stand of it and they know it's going away. The level of desperation about that is really hard to understand for people who have never lived in a one horse town or a one industry region and seen it die. Nessie: You know if they had control of their own industry and they managed it, they could all keep their jobs. They could even clear cut and not harm the forest. Instead of clear cutting blocks, if they clear cut in contoured strips the right width, it could actually be good for the forest. David: Believe me, I understand all this. This was one of the principle points behind Redwood Summer. It was one of the things that made Judi Bari a successful organizer. She said, listen, the reason we are losing both jobs and forest is because these companies rip and run. Prior to the sale, Pacific Lumber employed more people than it does now, paid higher wages than it does now, made more profit than it does now, and cut about one tenth the trees, and cut fewer trees than it grew every year. Nessie: Wait, what's happening? David: It was bought by Maxim. It was bought by a major multinational corporation in a leveraged buy out and junk bond debt that they have to pay off and the only way to pay it off is to accelerate the cutting. And one of the assets of Pacific Lumber that was purchased in the rip off was the employee benefit plan which was then sold. Nessie: So they don't have benefits now? David: No. Their pensions were taken away. Nessie: Their pensions? David: Oh yeah. Some of 'em. I mean, these guys are sleazy balls. This guy Horowitz . . . Nessie: How come none of these guys they ripped off have run amok at a board meeting? David: Because they run amok on us. Nessie: Ah! There's a connection. Got it. David: We had . . . Nessie: 'Cuz those guys are armed to the teeth, you know. David: There are three big timber companies up there: Louisiana Pacific, Georgia Pacific, and Pacific Lumber, Maxim/Pacific Lumber. We did Louisiana Pacific, the first big demonstration in Eureka. We did Georgia Pacific in the big demonstration at Fort Bragg. We did Pacific Lumber at Fortuna, in the last big demo. And at that last big demo we had one of a number of competing people who was trying to organize the ex-workers of Pacific Lumber. Well, yeah, in the case of Pacific Lumber in particular, it is a total greed bag rip off . . . You know, the guy also owned a Savings and Loan in Texas that cost the tax payers one point six billion dollars. Maxim is one of the largest aluminum companies in the world. It was a major big rip off deal. The chairman of Louisiana Pacific is fond of saying, "We don't care how big the trees are, cut 'em all down; we cut them to the ground. The little ones go into the chipper and the big ones go into the planer," he says, "And then when we're done, we move on." He's flat out explicit about it. And this is one of the reasons that Judi was as able to be as successful politically as she was, is because this is the case there. These people are at some level being reamed by an environmental contradiction. The environmental contradiction is there because of the nature of the industry, both historically (the belief that you just move on and cut something else) . . . you know when they mowed something down a hundred and fifty years ago, they didn't plant something new. Twenty years ago they started planting . . . And the belief that you could just mow the shit down and somehow it would just regenerate by itself, not understanding the long term devastating effects of clear cutting. Both these things have been known for fifty, sixty years now, and the reason that it doesn't get done is that nobody makes them do it, and it's cheaper not to. And yeah, it's the case that the logging could be done differently and it could continue to support people, particularly if those people also worked in restoration of the forest. But of course, restoration of the forest doesn't have all the macho values that go with cutting it down, and there is resistance to being forest restorers as opposed to loggers. Nessie: Why? It doesn't pay? David: That of course is a value decision. It could be made to pay. It pays as well as mill work. It pays as well as assisting type, low ranking loggers work, but it just doesn't have any macho value to it. Nessie: Is there room for advancement? David: No. But it's important to keep in mind these guy's machismo. It's important to them. Also, loggers have one of the highest incidence of alcoholism. They have a very incidence of espousal abuse. There's every imaginable kind of indication that they're living a highly inauthentic (sic) role up there and they know it. They know it's doomed to die, and they know it's doomed to die because of what they're doing. But it's also the case that most of these people don't see beyond what the timber industry tells them. Of course their labor union up there parrots the line of the timber industry all the way. Nessie: And the survivalists? There's a reason why there's such a high concentration of these right wing survivalist nuts up there. That is the result of an interesting conspiracy which, surprisingly few people talk about. In the late forties, early fifties, a number of these right wing organizations, some of which no longer even exist, targeted the north western United States as a place for these people to go because it had the lowest proportion of non whites in the country, and because it was relatively cheap and unsettled. There were economic aid programs to move people up into that area. It's no accident that the Metzgers and people like that are active in Oregon and northern California and Idaho and Washington and western Montana. They moved there. They did it on purpose, self consciously. They made a self conscious, collective decision among all these competing right wing paramilitary groups to move en mass. They had both formal and informal campaigns to finance people to move there, and stuff like that. They collected funds to establish this. They're up there. They do grass roots politics. Nessie: Ever see that movie, <Blood in the Face>? David: No Nessie: You should see it. Its about them. It's a documentary. David: Oh, I saw that. Nessie: There's a good book, too. It's called <Armed and Dangerous> by James Crates. It's scary. There's this whole fascist paramilitary underground army and it's being covertly armed and financed by elements of the intelligence community. David: Look. I'm saying the ruling class wants to control these people and you're saying that it's arming them. I think it's real important to make a distinction. Nessie: The ruling class has factions. It's a faction of the ruling class that's arming these guys David: I guess that's what I was groping at. Nessie: The ruling class is not a monolith. There is a definitely fascist wing, and they have this pet army, the Aryan army. They train. They have rank. They're armed. It's scary. David: There is overlap between the right wing sections of the ruling class (which I usually call the secret government) and the police and intelligence and military agencies. Not surprisingly. But it's important to keep in mind that they're a faction, a minority faction, a relatively disempowered minority faction. Nessie: That's true, but that's only because the rest are ganged up on them. And they're not as disempowered as us. ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.infiltration.org http://www.darkpassage.com http://www.mattoledefense.org/alerts/08192001_video.html http://sf.indymedia.org/display.php?id=100562#100565 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! 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