--- Begin Message ---
-Caveat Lector-
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Golgbug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yes, I read the affidavit. Although interesting there is no evidence to
> support the allegations made in it and Vreeland won't answer questions
> anyway. So, not much help there.
>
> Anyone who has a creative streak can generate a conspiracy theory.
> Providing it is labelled as such I don't have a problem with that.
It is
> when a theory is packaged a fact that problems begin to surface.
True. As Sherlock said, it is a prime error
to speculate in advance of the facts.
At the same time,
general patterns begin to emerge before all the facts
are in. The symbol ~ is a 'quasi' sign, tentative..
Sniffin' around is a dog's life, suitable for detectives and
nosy journalists. But as Bob Marley noted: "When I analyze te stench,
to me it makes a lotta zense.."
>
> I was therefore pleased to see that you clearly labelled your
Octopus thread
> as theory and not fact.
As theory it is okay, I guess. As fact it isn't.
> One can toy all day long with a theory but facts need to be
supported. Just
> because Vreeland (or others) say it is so doesn't make it so.
OK, that makes sense. As regards ONI, a fact is
that the Washington Post printed that the 9/11 Pentagon attack
wiped out the entire chain of command of the 'super-secret' CNO-IP
(Chief of Naval Operations--Intelligence Plot.)
>
> For example, have you read the numerous court pleadings of Lee
Wanta. No
> Navy connections, no Boorda. Not a hint of Vreeland. I can't even
remember
> the mention of illegal narcotics. Whoops.
No, that makes sense. If we believe the Washington Post
the CNO did have a 'super-secret' investigative branch;
they would hardly identify themselves as such to the people
they were investigating. I also don't think Sherman would
be confused by legal matters. According to him the responsibility for
protecting America from treason lies with the CNO who even has the
power to arrest the President.
It is perfectly logical that the Mena money laundering would be
investigated; that names like L. Wanta, M. Rich, Mr and Mrs Clinton,
V. Foster, G Bush Sr, W. Barr etcetc would come up.
Keep in mind that the CNO has information not available to nosy
conspiracy theorists, for example satellite shots of the park where
Mr. Foster supposedly committed suicide.
Factually Mr. Wanta ends up in jail; Mr. Foster ends up dead; and Mr.
Rich gets an 11th hour pardon from outgoing Pres. Clinton.
Factually Adm Boorda ends up dead. Factually Pres. Clinton gives the
eulogy at his funeral. Factually the American media en mass accept
suicide and massively speculate (ie, 'theorize') that the CNO had been
depressed because Newsweek was going to expose his having the wrong
medals (!) Factually Elmo Zumwalt goes on the Larry King show and says
there was nothing wrong with Adm Boorda's medals at all.
Well, is there a stench or isn't there? Note how the US media has spun
out the question as not whether suicide but why suicide.
>
> You state that "Chip Tatum flips William Colby to the UID side."
How did he
> do that?
You're asking me?
Let me quote an authoritative English investigative journalist:
from Nexus Magazine, copyrght 1997 by David Guyatt (deepblacklies)
www.nexusmagazine.com/pegfile2.html
[...]
FULL CIRCLE
In a very real sense, Chip Tatum's story has now gone full circle. In
March 1996, Tatum wrote to former Director of Central Intelligence,
William Colby. Readers will recall that it was Colby who originally
recruited Tatum into the CIA in 1971 and set him on his career as a
covert intelligence operator. Since that time, Tatum developed a
fondness for the super-spook, and Colby, in turn, played the role of
mentor. In his letter, Tatum asked Colby to write a foreword for his
book, Operation Red Rock, which he had completed just two months
earlier. But there was another purpose in writing to the former DCI.
Four years earlier, when Tatum resigned his OSG command, he had
volunteered to plead guilty on a felony charge in order to discredit
himself. This was part of Tatum's strategy of survival, as he was
aware that one didn't resign this particular team and remain alive for
long. The fact that he had collected a body of evidence (including
video and audio tapes and other related documentation) as 'life
insurance', gave muscle to his negotiation. At that time he had not
planned to reveal any of the details that he has now provided. In the
event, his offer was taken up and he served a prison sentence of just
over one year. That is where matters should have ended.
However, having served his sentence-thus complying with his part of
the agreement-both Tatum and his wife, Nancy, were subsequently
arrested and charged with another misdemeanour. Tatum got angry. His
letter to Colby stated: "I have always kept my word with you. I told
you that I would discredit myself. I don't need your help to
accomplish this. But to charge Nancy with a crime, and expect me to
allow this, is beyond my comprehension." He angrily continued: "I know
that North and Rodríguez are the fuel for this, but haven't you warned
them that I wouldn't sit still for this?" He then added: "I do not
blame you for this; I am disappointed that you have allowed the 'Pond
Scum' to control you!"
There then followed a warning: "The second book that I have already
started will contain my movements from 1980 through today. I will not
only write about the missions but about the NWO [New World Order]
timetable and planned events including a chronology." Ominously he
added: "And I will name names. You must detach yourself from these
people!"
Tatum then continued by outlining how he would enter evidence for his
forthcoming trial and warning that if disallowed for reasons of
classification, then "a Special Prosecutor will be required to
investigate the information, and the videotape tells no lies." He
added: "I also had stills and an audio clip of a meeting added to the
video. Out of respect for you I have kept your name out to this point,
but if you don't separate yourself from these terrorists I will have
no choice but to reveal your involvement also. Either way, the group
will be exposed-by the media or by the investigating committee. Either
way, they're out of gas!" Tatum closed the letter by saying: "Mr
Colby-you've done too much for your country to be disgraced in the
manner that these men will be."
Less than two months later, the former DCI was reported missing. By
Monday 6 May 1996, Colby's body was found. It was later reported that
Colby died following a "canoeing" accident on the Wicomico River,
Maryland. Tatum and many others (including this writer) doubt this.
Throughout his life, Colby had an all-abiding fear of water. It would
have been entirely out of character for him to step voluntarily into a
boat, let alone a canoe.
Despite this, Colby's death officially remains an accident...
>
> You may be interested to learn that I spent seven or eight months
> interviewing Chip when he was still in prison (via his wife Nancy --
Chip
> would call her everyday). This resulted in "The Pegasus File"
which, as a
> matter of fact, I wrote many years ago.
When FTW and whatreallyhappened got hacked,
it occured to me that I couldn't rely on website compendiums
so I spent a day downloading what I thought were important articles,
including of course "The Pegasus File".
> The only people speaking to Chip
> regularly at that time, besides myself, were Dan Hopsicker and
Rodney Stich.
> Chip was firstly Air Force and later Army. Not Navy (so still no
Boorda).
> He did know Gunther Russbacher (who was ONI) and others mainly because
> Gunther had also flown in Southeast Asia at the same time Chip was down
> there as an Air Controller with Air America (CIA).
The UID may have grown out of ONI initially
but it was deliberately 'unofficial' and hardly restricted
to Naval personnel. In 'fact' one could theorize that it was designed
to expand beyond the military. Journalists for instance get plenty
ornery when one of their own gets 'suicided'.
Some mysterious military officer in full dress showed up at Danny
Casalero's funeral, put a medal on the coffin and saluted.
Danny had no known connection to the military.
Since it wasn't an 'official' medal, logic suggests it was
'unofficial'.
> Chip then disappeared
> and was reported to have been killed somewhere in Central America.
Who reported this and when? I lost track about 4-5 years ago when he
was in Montana. Frankly I'd like to believe he and Nancy had
retired to live happily ever after on Pitcairn Island.
His story is like some medieval morality play: innocence, innocence
lost, awareness, confession, redemption.. tres dramatic.
>
> I happen to know for a fact that Chip didn't know Lee Wanta more
than in a
> very limited passing sort of way, and that only took place after
Chip got
> out of prison but before he disappeared - a period less than a year as I
> recall. Meanwhile, Lee didn't even know about Vreeland until late last
> year.
Their situations resonate. Also in the frame-up club: Bill Tyree, Bo
Gritz, Michael Riconosciuto.. Modern America is like that.
As Bob Dylan observed in Hurricane: ~"ain't it a shame
to live in a land where justice is a game."
>
> Incidentally, have you checked the law in the US governing the power of
> civilian arrest by the military relative to your statement:
>
> Boorda becomes Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) with which comes
> the power to arrest top administration officials for treason.
I'm trusting Sherman on this.
>
> Does the CNO have the power to arrest top administration officials for
> treason? Isn't it the FBI who do that?
As I recall it is a very old law predating groups like the FBI,
CIA, or even the Air Force. Perhaps an American would know
the details.
>
> According to Vreeland, Boorda had a meeting scheduled with Clinton
at 3.00
> p.m. (if he was long-term Navy wouldn't he naturally express the time as
> 15.00?)
Perhaps, but remember he was undercover most of the time.
> and had scheduled a media announcement half an hour later. Just where,
> exactly, was this media announcement to take place?
> Which members of the
> media were alerted in advance to be whereever it was they were
supposed to
> be? Have you spoken with any to see if any one of them knew about
it? How
> long was his meeting with Clinton scheduled for? How much time
would elapse
> travelling from the Oval Office - at the termination of the alleged
> meeting - back to his Navy car and then on to the Washington media press
> conference? Would the Secret Service guarding Clinton let a Navy
Admiral
> arrest their POTUS? Did Boorda plan to be armed in case Clinton
resisted
> and circled the wagons?
Very good questions. I don't know the answers. I seem to recall that
they (the 24 flag officers) expected to be charged themselves and
introduce all the accumulated evidence in the trial.
>
> Does this sound like reality?
>
> Does the timeline of half an hour seem remotely feasible?
It seems feasible to me. In any case the 'official story' that Adm
Boorda was sitting around waiting for the Newsweek reporters to
confront him over faked medals smells preposterous, especially after
Adm Zumwalt's blunt refutation.
>
> None of it rings true does it.
Actually my intuition suggests that the details may be
fuzzy but overall the picture makes sense.
And the only people who can corroborate these
> purported facts are long dead. Conveniently dead.
Indeed, very conveniently dead. Compared to the normal death rate
for healthy middle-aged American men it is an astonishing coincidence
that 'accidents' and 'suicides' should suddenly strike with such great
frequency. As I recall Sherman has statistics, but only for the 24
flag officers. According to Lt Vreeland if you include lower-ranked
officers
there were 89 in the original UID 'Intelligence Plot' and after 9/11
took out the naval command center at the Pentagon there were only a
half-dozen left, and those were in hiding outside the US.
> Of course, you could
> always ask Bill Clinton if it was true, but my guess is that he was busy
> staining some interns dress at that particular time of the day -- or
doing a
> line or two. It's a safe bet he wouldn't answer anyway.
They don't call him slick willie for nothing.
>
> Consequently, I don't think your conspiracy theory hangs together at all
> well.
Perhaps, but the alternative is a coincidence theory that doesn't hang
together either. It is certainly a big coincidence if Lt Vreeland had
one lucky guess that Marc Bastien's death in Moscow was murder and
another lucky guess that the WTC and Pentagon were to be bin Laden's
targets and the prescience to figure out that 'They' would call him
crazy, they would call him a liar, and the answer: "Let one happen
stop the rest!!!".
Is it hard to believe that they 'let one happen'? oops, four at once
happen? They were getting warnings from all over..how did they react:
they disarmed airplane pilots, got the air force to stand down during
hijackings, released Mr Moussaoui, forget to tell Logan Airport to put
their metal detectors on alert, ignored massive put options on
particular airlines and particular WTC-based companies, ignored the
Odigo warning.. Well there is a long list.
Obviously there was a big conspiracy, that is fact. The 'official'
theory is that the conspirators were all suicidal Afghan-trained Arabs
with box-cutters who learned to fly with amazing talents after a
summer course on Cessnas and these conspirators took them completely
by surprise. Does this conspiracy theory 'hang together' as you say?
Is it subject to 'reasonable doubt'?
Can the US spend $30 billion a year on intelligence and be as
incompetent and stupid as they would have us believe?
For conflicting theories apply Occam's Razor: The simple solution is
that they let the first one happen.
That doesn't 'hang together' for you?
Lawrence Day
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lday0000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:08 PM
> Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] On Vreeland's Documents Re: Message from Kursk
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Golgbug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Just to correct any posible misunderstanding, I haven't fallen out
with
> > Vreeland. I never fell "in" with him in the first place.
> >
> > To explain: based on actual and considerable knowledge about the Wanta
> > papers, I was marginally surprised to see them posted by Vreeland
> and more
> > surprised to see that the Lt. had placed a link on his website to my
> > website - with the comment that it was important (Gee, I'm lost for
> > words...).
>
> Don't blush! :) Your site is excellent.
> I'm not surprised the Lt. directed young minds to it.
> >
> > Consequently, I posed some questions for him to answer as I wanted
> simply to
> > know how Wanta's story interlinked with Vreeland's story. To me
> they seemed
> > miles apart.
>
> While I was reflecting on this point you raise,
> I reflected that Adm. Boorda was the 'link' you
> were looking for.. Perhaps your intuition coincided,
> for in your next sentence you brought up Adm Boorda yourself.
>
> I can't guarantee the proportions of affidavits, conversations with Lt
> Vreeland, or my own speculation, but my current view is roughly this:
>
> ~ Young Delmart Vreeland joins the Navy, a family tradition..the Navy
> quickly discovers he is very intelligent and drafts him for the Office
> of Naval Intelligence..
> ~ Concurrently Admiral Boorda is discovering 'the worst-kept secret in
> Washington' about CIA drug smuggling. As sometimes this involves navy
> boats and submarines he is very indignant. He wants information. He
> wants an agent who can penetrate criminal circles without arousing
> suspicion.
> ~ As the Bush/Clinton/CIA criminal conspiracy begins to involve
> figures who cannot be 'officially' investigated, Adm. Boorda recruits
> for a 'UID'-- an unofficial intelligence investigation division.
> ~ Young Vreeland becomes involved.. There are 24 'flag' officers in
> charge and another 65 UID agents involved at lower levels.
> ~ Adm. Boorda becomes Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) with which comes
> the power to arrest top administration officials for treason.
> ~ Chip Tatum flips William Colby to the UID side. Things look very
> dangerous for the octopus.
> ~ Leo Wanta is a player due to familiarity with the Arkansas money
> laundry. Without a laundry, coke dealing is profitless.
> Adm Boorda has Mr. Wanta pencilled in as a witness at the trial.
> ~ The octopus goes ballistic. Before Adm Boorda can confront Pres
> Clinton and give a press conference he is suicided. Other UID members,
> in large numbers, get suicided. William Colby has a boating 'accident'.
> ~ Over time, the original 89 of the Boorda UID are reduced to six,
> one of whom, 'Henery' is in jail, and one of whom, Lt. Vreeland
> ('Mike'), is fending off jail. The rest of the survivors are in
> hiding, outside the US.
> ~ Lt. Vreeland's 'v-team' is given the most dangerous possible
> assignments: cheating the mafia is not recommended for longevity,
> neither in Michigan nor Moscow.
> ~ In Moscow, Marc Bastien is murdered. In Toronto
> Lt. Vreeland is arrested. The USG wants their spook back.
> The Canadian judge finds the 'criminal record' to be
> "confusing and contradictory".
> ~ Lt. Vreeland is granted temporary refugee status in Canada.
> ~ The US extradition case resumes in September.
> ~ On the internet various people with various agendas
> urge Lt Vreeland to display the documents from the Russia pouch
> for all to see. I have no objection to curiousity,
> as motives go it is pretty pure, but it doesn't match up against
> staying alive and out of jail.
> ~ After he had listed the targets for 9/11,
> in his famous pre-9/11 jailhouse memo, Lt Vreeland wrote:
> "They will call me crazy; They will call me a liar"
> and answered that: "Let one happen stop the rest!!!!".
> Isn't that exactly what happened on 9/11?
> The 'first one' may have been synchronous, 5 planes at once..
> who knows, but consider:
> isn't letting the first one happen
> the equivalent of treason?
> Isn't it the US CNO and his IP (Intelligence Plot) who have
> the legal say in that?
> Sorry, the whole CNO-IP chain of command disappeared at the
> Pentagon on 9/11..
> ~ tricky octopus eh!
>
> Lawrence Day
>
>
> >
> > I was also interested in what Vreeland could say about Admiral Boorda.
>
> Have you read the affadavits?
> >
> > It is my experience that honest, straight-forward people are usually
> happy
> > to answer honest, straight-forward questions. Those who don't
> activate the
> > "red flag" and become a cause for concern in the truth department.
> >
> > In view of Vreeland's continuing resistance (refusal) in answering any
> > questions that might (in my view, anyway) reveal weaknesses and or
> palpable
> > untruths in his story, I have concluded that Lt. Vreeland is very
> likely a
> > fraud.
> >
> > He has had the opportunity to modify this view I (and others it
> seems) have
> > formed, by responding to the many important questions raised. But
> he hasn't
> > & I suspect he won't. He condemns himself by not doing so.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "bakeknedeisen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 9:17 AM
> > Subject: [CIA-DRUGS] On Vreeland's Documents Re: Message from Kursk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rereading the FTW briefing paper on Vreeland, I assume that the Kursk
> > memo and the Russia-Iraq nuclear plan were items in the `pouch' that
> > Vreeland carried to Canada. If anyone (Vreeland or other) knows that
> > to not be the case please advise. I also assume that both documents
> > were translated by Vreeland from the Russian, since Vreeland told
> > Ruppert that he was making the translations.
> >
> > Amidst the falling out of Vreeland with researchers valuable to CIA-
> > Drugs like Laura, John Horne, David Guyatt etc and Sean McBride's
> > persistent questions, and the `surprise' revelation that he didn't
> > turn a hack writer into the next Oliver Stone on the ski slopes of
> > Aspen with Jack Nicholson hence a website attack, amidst my questions
> > of the authenticity of the two documents, I nonetheless encourage
> > Vreeland to release the documents he has in the pouch. Having
> > questioned forcefully the legitimacy of the documents (save for the
> > Greenspan records) I conclude that the agenda of the documents may
> > bear no relation to Vreeland's own, that of a courier who wants to
> > report what he has in the bag.
> >
> > Another question for Vreeland - what do you think happened with the
> > USS Cole?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "bakeknedeisen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > OK so it relates to the raising. Now tell me why it gives specific
> > > instructions for "all seamen" not to enter the Kursk and then it
> > > gives specific instructions concerning what to do once you enter
> > the
> > > Kursk.
> > >
> > > The specific instructions to burn sailors of certain ethnicities
> > > would not be given to "all seamen." Then you run the risk of
> > > alienating soldiers who have lost friends and colleagues, when it
> > > should come as no surprise that entering a sub in such a sensitive
> > > matter as the Kursk would only be done by authorized personnel. Do
> > > they think they can give an order to "all seamen" and not have it
> > > come to the attention of foreign governments?
> > >
> > > > What Middle Eastern or Asian countries would be interested in a
> > new
> > > > type of torpedo designed specifically to take out air craft
> > carrier
> > > >battle groups? Who would want the passenger log destroyed?
> > >
> > > Since I maintain that the memo is a fraud, I am not going to use it
> > > to draw inferences regarding international espionage. But please
> > > explain where you are going with this. What inferences can be
> > drawn
> > > from the memo, if you think it is legit?
> > >
> > > Bake
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "lday0000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "bakeknedeisen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > 1. The date of the letter does not bear any relation to the
> > > > > submarine's demise.
> > > >
> > > > Well, its 'demise' no. But it relates to its raising, which took
> > > place
> > > > over several months and was completed on Oct. 8, 2001.
> > > >
> > > > > There are two ways to interpret this ? (a) the
> > > > > date is a typo or (b) the date is not a typo. If it is not a
> > > typo,
> > > > > the idea you can kill anyone on the Kursk at that date suggests
> > > it is
> > > > > a fraud.
> > > >
> > > > Everybody on the Kursk was already dead.
> > > > Obviously the seamen addressed are the live ones
> > > > involved in the raising.
> > > >
> > > > > If it is a typo, the only explanation is that the date
> > > > > should read August 2, 2000, less than two weeks before the
> > > tragedy.
> > > > > I'm not a submarine warfare expert, but I assume a submarine is
> > > > > either `at base' or `in the water' and can only be entered and
> > > > > exited `at base' so Order 23415 is telling people that they
> > > shouldn't
> > > > > take a taxi to the bottom of the water and try to board the
> > > submarine.
> > > >
> > > > Wrong premise produces wrong conclusion.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The letter's spelling and punctuation are similar to
> > > Vreeland's
> > > > > own tendencies suggesting he `made the translation.'
> > > >
> > > > Or typed out someone else's.
> > > >
> > > > > Since Vreeland
> > > > > worked in Russia it is possible that he could have translated
> > > it ?
> > > > > though he doesn't say `my translation' which would generally be
> > > the
> > > > > standard for most people. But it is unlikely for a translator
> > to
> > > > > make these spelling errors since they generally double check
> > with
> > > a
> > > > > Russian-English dictionary.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. The order to burn Middle Eastern and Asian passengers could
> > be
> > > > > construed as a way of keeping their identities hidden from
> > divers
> > > > > after the tragedy. 25 of the 118 crew members have been
> > > identified
> > > > > as a result of the recovery effort.
> > > >
> > > > Now these numbers may well be 'disinformation'. A normal crew
> > would
> > > > be 107. The Russian officials initially didn't want to release the
> > > > crew names
> > > > but a newspaper 'bought' the list. The Russian memorial page says
> > > 118
> > > > posthumous medals and then lists 124 names.
> > > > Who are the other six people?
> > > > What Middle Eastern or Asian countries would be interested in a
> > new
> > > > type of torpedo designed specifically to take out air craft
> > carrier
> > > > battle groups? Who would want the passenger log destroyed?
> > > >
> > > > > But the recovery effort can
> > > > > easily be controlled by Russia, so what point would there be to
> > > kill
> > > > > Middle Easterners beforehand?
> > > >
> > > > You missed the point. They are already dead. It was their
> > presence
> > > > that was being covered up.
> > > >
> > > > > Why would `all seamen' on the Kursk be
> > > > > enlisted in this plot, a tactic that could have led to mutiny?
> > A
> > > > > commander can terminate certain passengers summoned to an
> > > enclosed
> > > > > area, see that passenger lists are destroyed, and oversee
> > comings
> > > and
> > > > > goings of people into and out of the submarine.
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. The implication of the document is that the Kursk went down
> > > > > because of the intent of the Russian navy. Now what purpose
> > > would
> > > > > that serve? What purpose would it serve Putin, who faced
> > > widespread
> > > > > criticism for the disaster?
> > > >
> > > > You misread the 'implication' completely.
> > > > The Kursk went down because it collided with the US Memphis
> > > > which was monitoring the naval exercises.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is disinfo of the type we saw in the Iraq letter.
> > > >
> > > > Well then why not forge 'Iraqi' rather than 'Middle Eastern and
> > > Asian'?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "macnamara9" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > http://pub95.ezboard.com/fwwwltvreelandcomfrm1.showMessage?
> > > > > > topicID=175.topic
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ltvreeland
> > > > > > NotAconMan
> > > > > > (6/29/02 12:34:05 am)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THREATS ARE MADE.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TRANSMISSION TO KURSK : TRANSLATED FROM RUSSIAN TO ENGLISH. A
> > > LINK
> > > > > > WILL BE PROVIDED FOR THE ORIGINAL RUSSIAN..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 0128
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RE: KURSK
> > > > > > DATE: 09-02-2001
> > > > > > ORDER23415
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BE IT KNOWN TO ALL SEAMEN , THE FOLLOWING ORDER IS TOP
> > PRIORITY.
> > > > > > ENTRY TO THE KURSK IS DENIED TO ALL PERSONS. STOP? THE KURSK
> > IS
> > > OFF
> > > > > > LIMITS AND SHALL REMAIN CLOSED AND SEALED UNTIL IT IS
> > RETURNED
> > > TO
> > > > > > BASE?STOP?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > KNOWONE IS TO KNOW OF THE PASSENGER LOG, ALL ASIAN AND MIDDLE
> > > > > EASTERN
> > > > > > PERSONS ON BOARD SHALL BE BURNED AND REMAINS TO BE
> > > > > > DESTROIED. STOP? ANYONE FAILING TO COMPLY WITH THIS ORDER
> > WILL
> > > BE
> > > > > > TREATED AS A TREASONIST MEMBER AND DEALT WITH AS SUCH. STOP?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Conspiracy theory" is a piss-poor term by any standard. I
> > deal
> > > in
> > > > > > conspiracy FACT, and, as you will note from my web page, I
> > make
> > > no
> > > > > > assertions without documentation. That takes things out of
> > the
> > > > > realm
> > > > > > of theory, doesn't it?" --Michael C. Ruppert,
> > Publisher/Editor -
> > > -
> > > > > > "From The Wilderness" http://www.copvcia.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ltvreeland
> > > > > > NotAconMan
> > > > > > (6/29/02 12:58:28 am)
> > > > > > Re: HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THREATS ARE MADE.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do not know if the Russian will post. If you can receive
> > > Ruissian
> > > > > > by e-mail send me an email. We are working on it now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > ---
> > > > > >
> > > > > > coppertop98125
> > > > > > TheSubWayGod
> > > > > > (6/29/02 1:10:29 am)
> > > > > > Reply Re: HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THREATS ARE MADE.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OK I don't get it. Am I having a blonde moment? I know what
> > it
> > > says
> > > > > > but what does it mean?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > --
> > > > > >
> > > > > > lday
> > > > > > AwsomeChessPlayer :)
> > > > > > (6/29/02 9:50:21 am)
> > > > > > Re: HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THREATS ARE MADE.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Presumably 'The Company' (CIA) visited 'The Wildcard' (Lt.
> > > > > Vreeland)
> > > > > > and threatened him if he posted certain documents on the
> > > Internet.
> > > > > > Presumably this is one of the documents that he was told not
> > to
> > > > > post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Kursk was a Russian nucleur submarine that blew up
> > > mysteriously
> > > > > > in the Atlantic a few years ago. Eventually it was salvaged
> > and
> > > > > towed
> > > > > > back to Russia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Evidently the Russian Naval Intelligence was very serious
> > about
> > > > > > information leaking out about certain foreign 'passengers'.
> > > This is
> > > > > > just the type of information that ONI would be interested in
> > > > > > obtaining.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > alokla777
> > > > > > Registered User
> > > > > > (6/29/02 11:07:44 am)
> > > > > > Reply Re: KURSK INFO
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Secret police probe Dagestani terror link in Kursk tragedy:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AFP, MOSCOW, Aug 24 2000
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Russia's secret services have launched a probe into two
> > > Dagestanis
> > > > > > who were aboard the Kursk nuclear submarine when it sank on
> > > August
> > > > > > 12, media reports quoted Federal Security Service (FSB, ex-
> > KGB)
> > > > > chief
> > > > > > Nikolai Patrushev as saying Thursday.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The two men, a civilian and a military officer, were working
> > > for a
> > > > > > Caspian Sea firm and were not members of the submarine crew,
> > > NTV
> > > > > > private television quoted Patrushev as saying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mamed Gadzhiyev and Arnold Borisov were employed by
> > Dazdiesel,
> > > a
> > > > > > company which manufactured torpedoes for submarines, Interfax
> > > > > > reported.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "We have been gathering intelligence on this subject since
> > the
> > > very
> > > > > > first day but we do not at the moment have any proof
> > > implicating
> > > > > them
> > > > > > in the accident," NTV cited the FSB chief as saying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dagestan shares a border with the rebel republic of Chechnya,
> > > where
> > > > > > Russian troops are waging a bloody war against separatist
> > > > > guerrillas
> > > > > > who have threatened to launch a bombing campaign on Russian
> > > soil.
> > > > > > The FSB's role was not to develop its own version of events
> > > leading
> > > > > > up to the Kursk tragedy, Interfax reported Patrushev as
> > saying
> > > at a
> > > > > > briefing at the Northern Fleet's base in Murmansk.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It just helps obtain certain information that can either
> > > confirm
> > > > > or
> > > > > > refute the existing versions," Patrushev added.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, his comments mark the first time that Russia has
> > even
> > > > > > indirectly suggested that the Kursk may have been the victim
> > of
> > > a
> > > > > > terrorist strike.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Questioned by AFP, the FSB press service declined to comment
> > on
> > > the
> > > > > > possible Dagestani link, but FSB spokesman Alexander
> > Zdanovich
> > > > > later
> > > > > > criticised the media for misreporting Patrushev's remarks to
> > > > > suggest
> > > > > > the authorities were now investigating a terrorist or
> > kamikaze
> > > > > > strike.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It is not possible to link the names of the two Russian
> > > > > specialists
> > > > > > from Dagestan with the tragedy," he added.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Movladi Udugov, a Chechen official close to rebel warlords
> > > > > > Shamil Basayev and Khattab, claimed several days after the
> > > > > submarine
> > > > > > accident, which cost 118 lives, that the Kursk had been
> > > sabotaged
> > > > > by
> > > > > > a Dagestani member of the crew, Sirazhudin Ramazanov, on
> > behalf
> > > of
> > > > > > the Chechen rebels.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But Ramazanov's name did not appear on the list of the
> > Kursk's
> > > crew
> > > > > > members distributed on Wednesday's national day of mourning
> > for
> > > the
> > > > > > dead seamen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gadzhiyev, who designed a unique torpedo that can operate
> > with
> > > > > equal
> > > > > > success in fresh and sea water, visited the Northern Fleet,
> > the
> > > > > > Pacific Fleet, the Black Sea Fleet and the Baltic Fleet. He
> > was
> > > a
> > > > > > highly skilled and very good specialist who took part in many
> > > such
> > > > > > voyages and tests.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to our information, Mamed Gadzhiyev was on board
> > the
> > > > > Kursk
> > > > > > in order to monitor the tests of the latest Dagdizel product.
> > > > > > Both were from the Dagdizel [Dagestan Diesel] defence plant
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > > town of Kaspiysk.
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > here is another explaination for the sinking of the kursk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wednesday, Aug. 23, 2000.
> > > > > > A U.S. Sub Visits Norway to Rest?
> > > > > > By Andrei Zolotov Jr.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Staff Writer Five days after the Kursk sank in the Barents
> > Sea,
> > > the
> > > > > > U.S. nuclear submarine Memphis docked at a naval base in
> > Norway
> > > for
> > > > > > what a Norwegian military official said Tuesday was a planned
> > > visit.
> > > > > > The visit by the Memphis comes as Russian commanders are
> > > pushing
> > > > > the
> > > > > > theory that the Kursk went down after colliding with a
> > foreign
> > > > > > submarine, which would then have had to limp into a nearby
> > port
> > > for
> > > > > > repairs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But Norwegian Defense Ministry spokesman Brigadier Kjell
> > > Grandhagen
> > > > > > said Tuesday that the U.S. submarine, which arrived Aug. 18
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > > scheduled to leave next weekend, is not undergoing repairs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and the last one
> > > > > >
> > > > > > june20 2002 AP
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MOSCOW - The Russian navy's salvage mission to recover more
> > > > > wreckage
> > > > > > of the Kursk nuclear submarine from the Barents Sea floor has
> > > > > lifted
> > > > > > a large fragment of its nose section, navy officials said
> > > Monday.
> > > > > > The fragment of the Kursk's nose weighing five metric tons
> > > > > > (five-and-half tons) was recovered last week using remote-
> > > > > controlled
> > > > > > equipment, Northern Fleet spokesman Capt. Vadim Serga said
> > > Monday
> > > > > in
> > > > > > a telephone interview.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Other fragments, including a part of a torpedo tube and a
> > high-
> > > > > > pressure air cylinder, were raised earlier, Serga said. He
> > > added
> > > > > that
> > > > > > the salvage team had also raised several buoys left by a
> > > Norwegian
> > > > > > electronic intelligence ship that Russian officials said was
> > > > > > monitoring the Kursk rescue mission.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Russian navy hopes that fragments of the Kursk's nose
> > > section
> > > > > > will help shed light on the disaster's cause. Officials
> > > initially
> > > > > > claimed that the Kursk's sinking might have been caused by a
> > > > > > collision with a Western submarine, but have since pointed at
> > a
> > > > > > flawed practice torpedo as the most likely cause.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The navy has already ordered such weapons removed from
> > service,
> > > but
> > > > > > the government has not offered a final conclusion about what
> > > caused
> > > > > > the practice torpedo to explode, detonating other weapons in
> > > the
> > > > > bow.
> > > > > > Serga said that a government commission is expected to decide
> > > later
> > > > > > this week whether it is necessary to raise more fragments of
> > > the
> > > > > bow.
> > > > > > Once the salvage operation is over, the navy plans to blow up
> > > the
> > > > > > remaining wreckage of the submarine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > alokla777/berlin
> > > >
> > > > ++++++++++++++
> > > > from BBC, Aug. 23, 2000:
> > > > (...)
> > > >
> > > > There were 86 commissioned and warrant officers, 31 non-
> > commissioned
> > > > officers and sailors and one civilian inside the Kursk submarine
> > at
> > > > the time of the disaster. [sic]
> > > >
> > > > A full list was first published in the newspaper Komsomolskaya
> > > Pravda,
> > > > which said it had had to pay 18,000 roubles ($650), to obtain it
> > > > because it was not possible to get the information from official
> > > sources.
> > > >
> > > > The list, which is broken down by the compartment on the
> > submarine
> > > in
> > > > which each man served, was subsequently broadcast on Russian
> > > television.
> > > >
> > > > It includes a number of senior officers who were in the Kursk to
> > > > observe the Northern Fleet naval exercises.
> > > >
> > > > ++++++++++
> > > >
> > > > CNN: [May 30, 2002] Kursk arrives at Russian port
> > > > MURMANSK, Russia -- A salvage barge has pulled into the
> > > waters
> > > > of a Russian shipyard carrying under its hull the Kursk submarine
> > > and
> > > > the remains of sailors killed when it exploded and sank last year.
> > > >
> > > > The Giant-4 barge was attached to floating anchors about
> > 500
> > > > yards (metres) from shore at Roslyakovo near the northern port
> > city
> > > > Murmansk just after 5 p.m. (1300 GMT) on Wednesday, The Associated
> > > > Press reported Russian Navy spokesman Vladimir Navrotsky as
> > saying.
> > > >
> > > > He said it would take two or three days to prepare the
> > ship
> > > > for docking.
> > > >
> > > > "People concentrated all their efforts. The situation was
> > > very
> > > > tense as people felt high responsibility," Navrotsky told
> > reporters.
> > > > "After anchoring we immediately will start detailed radiation
> > > checks."
> > > >
> > > > The barge was escorted by ships that were checking to
> > ensure
> > > > no leakage from Kursk's two nuclear reactors, which have been a
> > > > constant cause of concern since the submarine sank in August 2000
> > > > during naval manoeuvres, killing its entire 118-man crew. [sic]
> > > >
> > > > Officials have said the reactors on the Kursk, one of
> > > Russia's
> > > > most modern submarines, were safely shut down at the time.
> > > >
> > > > Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov, who is in charge of
> > the
> > > > Kursk salvage effort in the Russian Cabinet, insisted the 18,000-
> > ton
> > > > vessel's reactors would remain safe.
> > > >
> > > > "We are absolutely confident nothing will happen to the
> > > > reactors," Klebanov, who oversaw the Kursk's lifting, told
> > reporters
> > > > on Tuesday.
> > > >
> > > > "If there had been one in a million chance that something
> > > > would happen, we would never had carried out the operation in
> > > Roslyakovo."
> > > >
> > > > Once the Kursk is docked, officials will remove the
> > remains
> > > of
> > > > the crew to prevent damaging contact with the air. Navrotsky said
> > > > officials expected to find 30 or 40 bodies, because the others on
> > > > board were probably atomised by the powerful explosions that sank
> > > the
> > > > submarine.
> > > >
> > > > At least 23 Kursk sailors survived for several hours in
> > the
> > > > stern compartments, according to letters found when divers
> > entered
> > > the
> > > > vessel in November and recovered 12 bodies.
> > > >
> > > > At least 30 graves were dug at the Serafimov cemetery in
> > St.
> > > > Petersburg for the burial of the dead sailors. Two sailors whose
> > > > bodies were retrieved are buried in Serafimov.
> > > >
> > > > Despite the reassurances from officials, concern about a
> > > > possible radiation leak has prompted Roslyakovo officials to work
> > > out
> > > > evacuation plans and boost medical supply stores.
> > > >
> > > > Another worry was the Kursk's 22 Granit cruise missiles.
> > > > "Unloading missiles is dangerous even in normal conditions," Popov
> > > > said. "We are taking extra safety precautions."
> > > >
> > > > If it proves impossible to safely lift the missiles from
> > > their
> > > > containers, the navy is prepared to cut them out of the Kursk's
> > hull
> > > > together with containers, Popov said.
> > > >
> > > > He did not say when the missiles would be removed, but
> > > > estimated it would take at least a year to dismantle the submarine
> > > > along with its nuclear reactors and missiles.
> > > >
> > > > It took the Dutch Mammoet-Smit International consortium 15
> > > > hours to lift the submarine, which was lying 356 feet below the
> > > > surface, on steel cables lowered from the Giant 4 barge. The
> > > operation
> > > > cost the Russian government $65 million.
> > > >
> > > > The government said the Kursk must be raised to avoid any
> > > > potential danger to the environment from its nuclear reactors and
> > to
> > > > shipping because of its position in shallow waters.
> > > >
> > > > The Russian navy also hopes to determine the cause of the
> > > > disaster. The favoured theory is that Kursk sank after a practice
> > > > torpedo exploded, causing others to detonate and rip the
> > submarine
> > > apart.
> > > > ++++++++++++
> > > > from: www.ticketsofrussia
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Operation to recover bodies of Kursk crewmen
> > > > On September 19, 2000, the President of Russia took the
> > > > decision to lift the bodies of dead sailors from SSN Kursk. A
> > > contract
> > > > was signed between Rubin and Norway-s Halliburton, the latter
> > > sending
> > > > in the Regalia whose crew, jointly with Russian deep-water divers,
> > > > were due to lift the bodies. In the evening of October 20, the
> > day
> > > of
> > > > Regalia-s arrival, the participants in the operation were joined
> > by
> > > > Navy C-in-C Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov and Northern Fleet
> > commander
> > > > Admiral Vyacheslav Popov, the latter appointed head of the
> > > operation.
> > > > The Northern Fleet-s rescue ship Altai brought to Regalia the
> > > > technical equipment stipulated in the contract.
> > > >
> > > > A temporary forensic laboratory was set up in Severomorsk
> > to
> > > > examine the bodies and a group of military forensic experts was
> > > flown
> > > > in from Moscow.
> > > >
> > > > At 1 a.m. on October 21, Russian and Norwegian divers
> > > > descended from Regalia to SSN Kursk that had sunk in the Barents
> > Sea
> > > > at the depth of 108 meters. The underwater works began with the
> > > > examination and preparation of the sub- hull for the cutting of
> > > > technological ?windows,¦ through which it was intended to lift
> > the
> > > bodies.
> > > >
> > > > There were 18 divers participating in the operation, who
> > > > worked in groups of three, with one representative of Halliburton
> > > and
> > > > two Russians in each.
> > > >
> > > > The divers discovered that the first and second
> > compartments
> > > > were completely destroyed. They failed to penetrate the third
> > > > compartment on account of zero visibility and considerable
> > wreckage.
> > > > Insurmountable piles of debris were found in the fourth
> > compartment,
> > > > where divers were able to advance a mere two meters and had to
> > quit
> > > > all further attempts at exploration. It was decided not to tamper
> > > with
> > > > the fifth compartment. An analysis of the available data indicated
> > > > that the sailors might have been on the lower deck of the fifth
> > > > compartment, where a diver could not penetrate anyway because of
> > the
> > > > small size (60 x 60 cm) of its only hatch. Besides, the fifth
> > > > compartment is one of the sub-s strength points and the cutting of
> > > > technological apertures in its walls and thereabouts was likely to
> > > > play havoc with the solidity of the hull and call into question
> > the
> > > > Kursk lifting operation scheduled for 2001.
> > > >
> > > > The body recovery operation was wrapped up on November 7,
> > > > 2000, in keeping with the decision of a meeting Rubin
> > > representatives
> > > > and operation heads held aboard the Regalia Tuesday. Divers sealed
> > > > Kursk-s hatches.
> > > >
> > > > Twelve bodies of crewmen were lifted in the course of the
> > > > 19-day operation, all of them identified.
> > > >
> > > > ++++++++++
> > > > from an extensive compendium of articles collected at:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/KURSK/kursk.html
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > The submarine's standard crew is 107 men. "Kursk" sank with 118
> > men
> > > > aboard. [sic] Apparently, the 11 "extra" crew were various Navy
> > > > officials present onboard to observe training exercises. The
> > > complete
> > > > list of the sub's standard crew was published by the Russian
> > press.
> > > > ...
> > > > Some Russian regional administration officials from
> > Murmansk
> > > > area stated that there were two civilian torpedo experts from a
> > > > military research organization aboard "Kursk" supervising a
> > > > test-launch of an experimental torpedo that uses liquid
> > propellant.
> > > >
> > > > ++++++++
> > > > Official list of 1st compartment from the Memorial site:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Senior Midshipman Abdulkadyr M. Il'darov - leading torpedoman
> > > > (Dagestan Rep.)
> > > > 2. Midshipman Aleksey V. Zubov - hydroacoustic party technician
> > > (Ukraine)
> > > > 3. Seaman Ivan N. Nefedkov - torpedo section commander
> > (Sverdlovsk
> > > Reg.)
> > > > 4. Seaman Maksim N. Borzhov - torpedoman (Vladimir Reg.)
> > > > 5. Seaman Aleksey V. Shul'gin - bilge artificer (Arkhangelsk Reg.)
> > > > 6. Senior Lieutenant Arnold Yu. Borisov - attached from
> > > OAO "Dagdizel"
> > > > Plant (Dagestan Rep.)
> > > > 7. Mamed I. Gadzhiyev - attached from OAO "Dagdizel" Plant
> > > (Dagestan Rep.)
> > > >
> > > > (from http://www.russialink.org.uk/kursk/crew-eng.htm )
> > > > Note the discrepency, 124 names are listed in all.
> > > >
> > > > Lawrence Day
> >
> >
> > Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
> > To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs
> > -Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org
> > OM
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
> To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs
> -Home Page- www.cia-drugs.org
> OM
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Please let us stay on topic and be civil.
To unsubscribe please go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cia-drugs
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