-Caveat Lector-

Subject: Iserbyt Radio Interview Amarillo, TX

On Sunday, May 20, 2001 at 8:30 p.m. Paul Anderson, radio talk show host,
The Source, KJRT, 7208 Old Kent Road, Amarillo, TX 79109, 800-525-5737,
interviewed Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, the author of The Deliberate Dumbing
Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail.

Mr. Anderson commenced the interview as follows:

P.A. I am Paul Anderson. You are listening to The Source. We are beginning
to talk with Charlotte Iserbyt...we are going to talk about her book "The
Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail" and there
are going to be some real heated issues we are going to face here. Charlotte
worked from 1981-1982 in the U.S. Department of Education as a Senior Policy
Advisor in its Office of Educational Research and Improvement where she
first blew the whistle on a major technology initiative. It is a pleasure to
have you with us.

C.I. Thank you. I very much appreciate being invited on your show. I am
looking forward to it .

P.A. You have put together an awesomely thick book. How long did it take you
to research and put all this together?

C.I. I started in 1972. I went all the way to 1990 putting all the research
together and then I decided to sort it out chronologicaly because I truly
didn't want to accept the conclusion that I was coming to: that the dumbing
down was deliberate. It made me sick to think that that could be true. So, I
thought, well I am going to put it together chronologically to see what it
looks like from that vantage point...which I did, and then I could see the
picture was very clear that this has been a deliberate effort to take our
country - to put it under a planned economy.

P.A. I want to talk about that because there are so many conspiracy
theorists out there. Do you feel like you fall into that camp or that you
are just actually alerting us to something that is going on that is a real
tragedy for America.

C.I. The American people have to be informed that this was deliberate
because if they don't know that, they don't know where to look to fight it.
It was deliberate. There is absolutely no question in my mind. I would lay
my life on the line on that statement.

P.A. Let me interject here... you said when you were doing that study it was
hard for you to accept the fact that it was deliberate. What was it that you
found that made you realize that there was a concerted effort to dumb down
America.

C.I. I was collecting research and most of the research I had were
government documents or old books...one is a very important book that
Carnegie Corporation published in 1934. That is probably the most important
one of all to discuss since we don't have much time to go into all my
research. That book was given to me by a very brilliant fellow who was in
Naval Intelligence. He gave us his library. Carnegie Corporation
commissioned the American Historical Association to do the research over a
period of four years and the result was the AHA's "Conclusions and
Recomendations for the Social Studies". The recommendation in the book was
to use the schools to change America from a free, individualist economy to a
planned, socialist, collectivist economy in the New World Order.

P.A. Why would an American corporation do something like that?

C.I. Well, I don't believe it (Carnegie) is the only one. The tax-exempt
foundations have been notorious for having spent taxpayers' money through
the years to implement a socialist agenda for this country. People have got
to get it through their heads that big corporations, multinational
corporations, etc. benefit from socialism, believe it or not, because they
don't have to compete. I remember David Rockefeller, about twenty years ago,
making a comment about Communist Angola. The press asked him "Why would you
be interested in setting up an oil refinery in Angola?" He responded, if I
recall correctly: "Because we find it much easier to deal with centralized
governments and economies... We don't care what their politics are." So we
have to get over the idea that the major corpoirations are pure capitalists
-- especially when we are dealing with multinational corporations which have
absolutely no allegiance to any particular country.

And so this goes far back to 1934... at that time, in the twenties and
thirties, you had many educators and business people going back and forth to
the Soviet Union and they were in great admiration of this communist system
when it was young, and they came back with these ideas and they wanted to
implement that system here. And so Carnegie Corporation was deeply involved.
This little book is extraordinary since it lists all the major players ...
and after that recommendation was made, Carnegie Corporation consistently
without any breaks in time -- I have a chronological record as I said --
that is what makes it so interesting - put money into all the major aspects
of education which have brought us to right now where we are implementing
the Cuban school-to-work agenda in this country and the politically-correct
agenda as well. Carnegie Corporation put money into the Educational Testing
Service (Princeton, N.J.) , the Education Commission of the States, and it,
as well as Ronald Reagan, signed agreements with the Soviet Union in 1985
which virtually merged our two education systems and that are still in
effect even though people thought the Soviet Union broke up. These
agreements are still in effect.

P.A. When that happened did Ronald Reagan sign those agreements to improve
the Soviet education system and it just had this reverse effect on us?

C.I. Oh, no, no. I don't believe so. I've got the documents. It was not a
matter of improving the system. It was probably pretty much the result of
what Norman Dodd spoke about when he was the Research Director for the Reece
Committee in 1953, the Congressional committee which investigated the
tax-exempt foundations. Norman Dodd was told by the President of the Ford
Foundation that the foundations got their instructions from the White House,
and at that time... in 1953 it was Eisenhower who was President and who
subsequently signed the first agreements with the Soviet Union in 1958...he
was told that they got their instructions from the White House and the
instructions were that they should use their grant-making (money) so that
the United States could be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union. And
your audience out there is probably saying "But the Soviet Union is dead."
That doesn't make a bit of difference. It is dead on paper but the system,
the communist system, is very much alive in this country, and it is being
implemented right now in our school systems through the United States
Department of Education.

P.A. I agree with that because socialism is really alive and well in the
major universities in the United States.

C.I. That is right. It is very, very clear. It is very sad and I don't like
having to tell people this and I particularly don't like to have to put alot
of the blame at the feet of the Bush family, but I am afraid I have
to...because... well, Reagan really started it... well, Reagan did not
actually... Carnegie Corp. started it in 1934. Then this left-wing agenda
was followed all the way through...when we became a member of the UN. The
curriculum we are looking at today is an international curriculum. It is not
just a national curriculum. Some people are saying "We don't want a national
curriculum." Actually we have an international curriculum. I say "Forget it,
folks...we are beyond that." We are implementing an international
curriculum. The Direct Instruction [to teach reading], the Effective School
Research and all...it's in Hong Kong, it's in South Africa...it's
everywhere. The school- to- work agenda is everywhere. The school choice
agenda ...choice, believe it or not, is being implemented in Russia. Because
the Russians always called for a partnership between industry and
government. That is part of the Communist Manifesto. So, we are implementing
that right here and I always say the best way to find out what's going on in
Houston, or Augusta, Maine, or Sacramento, California, if you really want to
know what they are doing in education, is to just go to Cuba for a few
months.

P.A. Well, we are giving away a free copy of The Deliberate Dumbing Down of
America, years of research that she put together. Paul gave out his
telephone no. and website for people to call in. He then asked Charlotte to
give out her website, www.deliberatedumbingdown.com, and she referred people
to their favorite bookstores or to Barnes&Noble.com or Amazon.com.

C.I. I would like to point out that the book is set up in 8-1/2"x11" format
so that you can copy anything you want in that book. The book contains major
verbatim documents, not much editioralizing by me...sometimes I have to
define terms or try to explain things to people. Basically my feeling was I
didn't want ever again to have someone tell me that something was my
opinion, and I didn't want American parents and teachers or any of us ever
again to be told by the major change agents...I would like to talk about
change agents later too... that "it is our opinion." So I decided I am just
going to put all the documents in one book...the documents that prove that
our tax money has been used not only to deliberately dumb down our children
but to create moral chaos through all the values clarification (destroying)
programs that have been implemented...and it was very, very clever, and
people ask why? I say "Why not?" It is alot easier to take a country that
way, gradually, like the frog in cold water, heat the water up and the frog
is dead, using the dumbing down of our children and the creating of moral
chaos through survival games where our children are required to decide who
is going to live and who is going to die, etc., etc. That is the easiest way
to take a country and they knew they could do that because if you don't know
what your country is all about and you don't know your Constitution or Bill
of Rights, or if you don't know what form of government you have, and you
don't know we have a special, special form of government, you are not going
to know when they take it (your form of government) away from you. And that
is exactly where we are right now. And it is not the teachers' fault and it
is not the parents' fault either. I believe it was a very diabolical plan
and I would like to get into explaining that later on.

P.A. Let me ask you this question. When you say it is not the teachers'
fault, in some cases I believe you are correct. But I feel like teachers in
some aspects are a big stumbling block to alerting people. Because one
teacher told me that the TASS testing that is used to evaluate students...

C.I. Well, you have yours in Texas, we ours in Maine. As far as I am
concerned, I would like to see them stop all testing...every single test
that is being discussed.

P.A. Let me tell you what she said. How can there be a dumbing down of
American students when the tests that were being used for seventh graders
are now being used for fifth graders, etc. How can anyone say it is a
dumbing down? Because in her eyes there has been an improvement if fifth
graders are as smart as the seventh graders used to be.

C.I. Re the dumbing down, she is incorrect on that, and if you get The New
York Times today, you will see an extraordinary article...think it is the
Business Section...Sunday... re the assessments across the country...and how
they are all being criticized regarding all the flaws in them, with mistakes
in the questions. This is Texas as well as Maine or Arizona. Big, big
article, and I looked at it and I contacted my education research friends
and I asked "Am I paranoid since I believe that "they" are simply creating
this enormous problem with the assessments and all other tests so that they
can go towards the national assessment which is the National Assessment for
Educational Progress, which will be the one test that George Bush has been
calling for - the one test - we won't have to worry about all the private
companies doing tests. The NAEP, by the way, was funded by Carnegie Corp.
And so if I were the average person out there listening to all this chitchat
about assessments and tests, I would just "close the book and say'enough of
this discussion.'" This is purposeful to create a tremendous climate of
chaos in testing so that the United States Department of Education, which
George Bush...(that is his baby...he loves the U.S. Dept. of Education)...so
that he can have his national
test which is what he has called for. And all the other private testing
companies can drop out, and we can have a national test just like all the
other countries which are members of the United Nations, because this is a
UN plan. The curriculum is UN anyway and that is where we are at and I am
very sorry to have to tell people that. It is sad that George W. Bush, Jr.
wasn't able to separate himself from his father's agenda in education. His
father's agenda was... and it's in the Congressional Record... it called for
school-to-work. He called for the socialist apprenticeship system which
denies our children upward mobility, i.e., identifies them in fourth grade
what they are going to do for the rest of their lives, and I am sorry to
have to say this when I am on a Texas station, but I knew this was going to
happen. Many of us did and we voted for Buchanan and it is happening, and
now we have the Faith-Based initiative which is even worse, if anything,
because that could be the federal takeover of the churches.

P.A. Let me offer this...The reason I am letting you say all that is because
I know that there is a deliberate dumbing down of America and I wanted
people to be alerted to it and I voted for Bush because I felt like there
were only two who could possibly get the Presidency, Gore or Bush, and he is
doing some really good things, but he is not a perfect person and there is
an agenda there that I want to see corrected, and that is why I want people
to be aware of this.
With your information what can the average parent out there, the average
citizen/parent/teacher...what can we do to start changing this?

C.I. Well, I think nothing is going to change...it can only get worse and
our form of government is being changed through the schools. When you change
our economic system which is what Congress did in the nineties and former
President Bush was supportive of this as well in the early nineties...Bill
Clinton on board...no problem...now George Bush, Jr. on board changing our
economic system to a planned economy, the global economy...Now as long as we
hold onto the U.S. Department of Education, which is in bed with the U.S.
Dept. of Labor, we can fully expect to loose our free system of government.
And I am not kidding. That is why I say the U.S. Department of Education
MUST be abolished. And anything less than that...bringing education back to
the local level, NOT state level, will not accomplish the objective of
holding onto our freedom. When I read that the Republican leadership...Bob
Novak wrote that article, incredible article, about the excuses made by the
Republican leadership, why they allowed George Bush to go along with this
education agenda, they said something to the effect "We always knew George
would go left on education."

P.A.: Let me interrupt you just a minute.. l I know you have some real
passion in that area but what I want you to tell us is what we can do to
actually change it. I note you are throwing some pretty good punches at
George W. Bush.

C.I. Well, I sure am because he is responsible for this whole agenda and I
am very upset and would just like to say this -- just because he comes from
Texas I am not going to hold back. I want to say that in 1932 a book was
written by William Foster, the Chairman of the Communist Party, U.S.A. Every
single thing that he recommended, including a United States Department of
Education and nationalization of education, etc. has taken place in the
schools of America. And the fact that George Bush wanted to hold onto the
U.S. Dept. of Education of Education is proof that he is implementing this
agenda. And, as I said before, the Faith-Based Agenda...

P.A. Interrupted

C.I. Okay

P.A. I understand your passion and I agree with you that there is a
communist and socialist world view that has been implemented in our public
schools, but instead of turning this into a political thing about how wrong
the Republicans are or how George W. Bush... and I am not defending him
because he is a fellow Texan, but because there are some good things he is
doing...

C.I. What is he doing that is more important than education?

P.A. Now listen, what I am talking about is overall and the reason I have
you on is because I want you to tell us what we can do to change this. It is
one thing to beat up on the administration for what they are doing. That's
fine, and I have allowed you to do that, but what is there that we can do
now?

C.I. OK. Well, I just said it. I think I said it three or four times.

P.A. Well, you have not made it clear because I haven't got it.

C.I. The only solution to the problem with American education is for every
single Texan who is listening to this and all their friends, etc....they
should get the book and find out that it was deliberate first of all, and
all the people that were involved in it. They will be shocked. But get the
book and contact their congressmen and senators and tell them if they don't
get rid of the U.S. Department of Education, the unconstitutional Department
of Education that Ronald Reagan promised to get rid of, they will not be in
office next time around. It is very serious... the U.S. Department of
Education...I was there.

P.A. I agree with you. I think we ought to get rid of it. You were a part of
it, and you should know.

C.I. I sure do know. It is a Marxist factory.

P.A. And I agree.

C.I. Then why is it that the Republican leadership thought that the other
issues were worth (fighting for), but not education? That quote by Robert
Novak, words to the effect "We knew George would go left on education and if
we could get him to be pro-defense and pro-life we were going to give up on
that one. Well, you know what I say to that? We wouldn't need to worry about
pro-life and pro-defense if our children hadn't been educated to favor
abortion and to favor disarmament in the schools.

P.A. Now I agree with that. Because of the fact that if you get them when
they are young...that is the whole principal of communism and any other
ideology that wants to undermine the culture of a society. And I agree that
the best way to undermine America is to destroy its youth and the way they
think, and to destroy absolutes, so I agree that education is of utmost
importance. So what I am saying is...getting the book and being informed,
getting rid of the NEA and the Department of Education...what can we start
doing? Before we do that I have a question from a caller who called in some
time ago - we have been going at this pretty passionately and I want to make
sure that Coyce Wilkinson who called in gets his question answered.

Coyce Wilkinson's question: Does the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement
of Teaching own the College Board out of Princeton, N.J?

C.I. Yes, they do. They have been involved in the development of and put
money into it...I believe they own it. Yes, the Educational Testing Service,
the College Board, the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP)
and the Education Commission of the States and, of course, as the caller
knows, it was the Carnegie Corporation that was the major player in the
restructuring of our schools in the eighties and nineties and presently.
David Hornbeck, William Spady - not Carnegie but he carried out the Carnegie
Plan, Mr. Outcomes (Performance) Based Education... so I know that I sound
very passionate about this but I will tell you something. I was in the
Foreign Service for eighteen years and I lived all over the world and I know
what it is like to live under socialism and communism, and I don't like this
agenda of George Bush's. I especially don't like his Faith-Based Agenda and
I don't like his School Choice Agenda, because when you give tax money to
the churches or you give tax money to private education, that is exactly
what happened in socialist/communist countries... then you are taken over by
the government because of the money.

P.A. OK. That I agree with and your experience in that area makes you an
authority on that. And I agree that the American capitalist, free market
society and the Constitution under which we live is the greatest form of
government in the world, and I want to preserve it just as much as you do.

C.I. I am sure you do, but it is very late -- it is darned late now-- that
is why I PLEAD with people. Get the book. Use the book in any way you want.
You can copy anything in it. Go to your elected officicals. Ask them "Don't
you know what you did in the nineties when you merged the public and private
sector and created partnerships? Don't you know what that is?" How could
they have done that? Even the White House...Ronald Reagan...I was the
liaison with the White House for Public/Private Partnerships...and I went
over there. I said to this lovely lady there "I am not really highly
educated, but please tell me what is going on here...what is Ronald Reagan
doing merging the public and private sectors?" The best label you can give
to that system is "corporate fascism." And that is what they have done. And
that is what our conservatives in Congress have voted for. What has
happened? Is the Deliberate Dumbing Down so complete that even our elected
officials don't know what form of government we have?

P.A. Well now, that, that is interesting...it could very well be that it is
that complete. Let me pause for a moment because we have the winner of a
promotional copy of your book. We had a number of people call in from all
over. But the drawing was the very man who asked the question regarding the
Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, Coyce Wilkinson.

C.I. Congratulations, good! I am thrilled. Hope he enjoys it.

P.A. For all the rest of you that were here in our listening area and
outside in other states, Charlotte is going to give information on how they
can buy the book.

C.I. They can go on my website which is good because it has the whole
Preface in there which tells why I wrote the book. The website is:
www.deliberatedumbingdown.com, and you can go on the Internet to
Barnes&Noble.com or Amazon.com, or to your local bookstore.

P.A. Very good. We appreciate your being our guest and I appreciate your
passion and I hope you get this message out so we can start to increase the
educational level of our people in returning us to our United States form of
Government.

C.I. I appreciate your having me on. Ordinarily I would not be this
concerned but I have been at this for thirty years, and I am beginning to be
very, very concerned about the future for our children if we can't convince
the Congress that they have made an enormous mistake.

P.A. Well, God bless you and keep up your work.

End.

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