ch 7
while copying into email
- i disagree that coercive deprogramming would have no place,. i might
say i believe all tools have a need at some obscure point. i might
keep public record of incidents that went poorly so people could learn
and improve.
i had a difficult therapy today and notes may get either scant or
again very weird
while reading along
- author states not aware of any deprogrammings involving beating or
rape. wikipedia stated otherwise, interesting information conflict one
could contribute to advancing.
- cult members often do strongly dislike classic forcible
deprogramming and may not forgive the deprogrammer, despite staying
out of the cult
- behavior of woman who rejoined and releft cult so as to comprehend
deprogrammer seems thematically similar to my attempts to retain
management over my memories and personal influence
- reminder to self that i experienced something similar to the
negative messaging regarding deprogrammers, with similarity around
"what is this oh this is terrifying and evil [then slowly over years]
oh this was actually the thing for _rescuing_ people" ... an element
of prevention of trauma therapy and of memory reconstruction ...
- Strategic Interactive Approach is deprogramming v2. involves family
and frienxds working together, and lots of information.
- thorough interview of family prior to engaging cult member, many
questions listed in book
- i would not consolidate a complete list of people contacted around
the issue as mentioned, as this would produce data that could be used
by the cult to re-establish thorough control if they acquired it
- introduces family to other ex-members to better understand
- including all family and friends eases burden of task, sharing among many
I'm reading this and I have an idea for resisting disruption. You'd
basically mind control each other to stay sane, forming each other's
group to do so. For example, if everyone is getting irrational, you
might make ritual points of reinforcing things that are clearly
logical and true for everyone involved.
like professor rat said the one time he said soemthing that made sense
to me: "clear, rational replies help us all out the most." or similar.
- for people not fully and heavily indoctrinated:
non-authoritary-figure-friend asks member if they would be willing to
hear a little of the other side of the story. if interested, place and
time is immediately scheduled. promise is pursued to continue
regardless of pressure from cult to cancel.
- boston church of christ also uses "dead" term for people not in cult
i'm having trouble reading the section on surprise encounters,
recalling tiny events in which others have apparently planned
influence of me, but never revealed this to me.
- people so indoctrinated they would never agree to meet ex-members
are engaged without prior explanation
- surprise encounter done with family, who are prepped on how to
reduce e.g. flight risk, and respect the member where they were at
the surprise encounter rings of a microenvironment. the pace yields
better likelihood for the member to agree to various things. this is
likely rooted in some understanding of the psychology of the cult in
question.
it's a nice idea, the positive microenviironment. there are things i'd
like to have easier to choose to do.
- in the example story from early in career, the cultist held firm and
agreed only to a small compromise.
- cultist made comfortable, given sense of control as much as possible
- related to cultist this was an opportunity to prove that he wasn't
under mind control
- in example, an experienced church person used bible to let cultist
realise contradictions in cult
it looks like the technique might work on extremists in general
- evidence used to build mistrust in cult leader
- commonly disliked cults described. cultist builds parallels.
a lot of shock needing processing is described in the cultist. sad,
the sense of a situation that doesn't seem as psychologicalyl safe as
it could be.
- after exposure to question-building material, cultist is not
restrained from leaving, so as to build trust. if cultist leaves,
information is further flowed to them in ways they would receive.
- cultist considered sense of surprise encounter when asked to
consider what else would hacve produced the information exchange
- cultist did not express memory of the request made to talk consensually
i'm thinking on how the surprise encounter approach provides for
protecting the intervention approach some from being mobbed by the
cult itself [i'm thinking iw would try to avoid it, but don't yet have
a safe-seeming alternative thought up]
- cultist wanted to spend many days figuring it out, qwithout deciding
to leave nor returning
it's so hard to make decisions in situations of heavy influence. so hard.
- the parents worked with a mainstream church similar to the cult in
order to successfully extyract the cultist, despite themselves having
a very different church. the cultist joined the mainstream church.
this flexibility helped it work.
copying over
- not everyone chooses what they think is best for them, i think
that's from financial media? but most people do in the usa i think; at
least, it's very encouraged to. maybe what's relevant here is that ina
situation of mind control, what is best for you is very important
since you use your mind to make every other decision.
while reading along
- 1. _demonstrate_ that cultist is in trap. 2, _show_ them they did
not choose to be in a trap. 3, point out that other people in other
mind control groups are trapped. 4, inform that it is possible to
escape.
- tends to take someone who has been in the trap to convey the message
effectively. former cult leaders pretty good at this.
- 1. people need and want to grow, and move toward where growth is
available.. 2, peopl eneed to focus on the here and now, what they can
do now, not e.g. worries. 3. people will always choose a better
decision at any point in time. 4, each person is unique and each
situation is different.; each member must be adapted to and
understood, and held as the most important person .
- understanding cult member: what do they value, what do they need,
what do they want, how do they think; step inside their head and
temporarily become them, to understand them and help them do what they
want to do. deep down, everyone wants out.
- 5, it's essential to be family-centered. everyone is affected and
invovled, and can be trained to communicate as effectively as
possible.. serious family problems are addressed first, which shows
the cuktist that positive things happen outside the cult.
- famiyl members learn: how to build rapport, trust, and plant
questions. family love is stronger than cult love: supports growth
rather than dependency.
- never try to take the group away from the cultist or permanently
remove them from the group.without their interest in this. offer paths
of growth via perspecvtives and possibilities; new choices. do
everything to help them feel in control.
thoughts here on the power of reality-backed messaging vs
influence-motivated messaging.
- indoctrination suppresses the real self, which stays. the mind
control virus can be cured, developing repair and bringing the self
forward again.
- author describes a slow flood of realizations upon "waking up"
brings one to think of the ongoingness of internal habits to suppress
certain ideas. similarity to my current experience.
- people who would want to be in the cult are not removed from it and
the intervention does not work, but such people rarely demonstrate
harm that results in the need for one. but people being enslaved, when
they can review fairly, prefer to make more choices of their own than
fewer.
- 1. focus on _process_ and _how_ change happens, not specific
changes. 2, an educational approach, spreading and teaching.
rescues work better at down times and poorly at positive times in the
cult. author says down times are impossible to predict, but a cult
would say they could craft one.
- chocies after failed recsue effort: 1. back off, leave cult member
in charge,offer communication when interested. 2, intervene with help
of other people, energy anbd time intensive: a surprise encounter
- prepping surprise encoutner is similar to cult recruitment, research
them, plan an inintial deception. but the end result is empowerment.
the story of rescuing the woman from The Family has pleasantness; the
hsuband was offered a job interview so she would be alone from him. he
was making all her decisions, and she was being used to recruit
members with sex.
- the interaction with the woman and her husband involved positive
celebration events in the family; bought everyone new clothes, went to
restaurants. no criticism of cult behavior.
thinking some of my personal experiences. i attempted a naive
influence of myself recently that had some impact. as i continued, and
encountered more variety in my life, it faded. the internal
experiences expose me to diverse stuff i respond to as i move through
my dissociations, with a little similarity to how a risk is run if a
cultist returns to their cult. [i had an experiencing attempting to
stabilize another who had gotten influenced earlier than me, where
their exposure to other things could wildly change stuff]. internally,
short term memory seems releveant. it's certainly easier to manage my
experiences if the interaction stays in my mind and actions.
meanwhile, when i have time away, i likely will teach myself to avoid
or sabotage the new influence pretty strongly.
- when wife separated from husband, she was recommended to rest and
got very long sleep [noting that author's cult experience involved
consistent denial of sleep] {and room servic meal after, everyone
staying at very nice hotel}
- conversations began with topics that had been oted to stimulate
parts of real identity in past
this is something i've experienced done to me a little; i need
communication for this, due to how i am managing my memories and
experiences. i was prepped against this.
- discussion then became honest-expression; family missed her
crying happened here, which is a moment of psychological shift. also
prepped against this. i fake-cry to cover it up somewhat regularly.
- then question whether cultist was having what they wanted etc,
instilling questions. story is worth read.
- while wanting to visit family, but not feeling able, cultist
emotionally shared parts of cult situation
- again, intervention group used religious content of cult to undercut cult
[it looks kind of like author retained sense of how cultist's feelings
and thoughts and subconscious were moving, in order to influence some
of her decisions, from experience as an indoctrinator, but he
describes it]
- once connection formed, described other cult experience, drew
parallels, asked more questions
the deprogrammer hugged the woman when she was in a shock state
regarding conenction of suppressed information. i would avoid this as
it could be unfair influence when soembody may be trying to sort out
what is real inside themselves: but maybe freeing them from the
horrible situation they are in is more important, unsure. it seems
like if there is certain shared truth underneath the instilled
beliefs, then continued influence there would be warranted. he was
also there in the moment in order to sense what was appropriate.
a question discrediting cults is whether the ends justify the means.
the reason they don't, is that if you include everybody in goals that
everybody would agree to anyway (e.g. world paradise as cults might
pursue in their doctrines), rather than blocking information flow in
and out, many many ways open up, ones that are far more efficient than
the ones being justified by their ends, and there is no need to
justify them, as they make good things happen already.
- author describes instilling strong emotional questions in the
cultist as empowering them
this doesn't seem right to me, maybe from my own influence, but it
makes sense the author would really bleieve this, since their career
is deprogramming and is backed by a passionate personal story.
the author wrote the dreams of the woman the following night, briefly.
first, solitude and lostness. then with the addition of bombardment.
then great peacea dn happiness. my interpretation could be that her
subconscious considered it painful and rude to have the new
information forced on her so much, and so confusing, but that she
ended up agreeing with what she was shown for freedom.
it's notable those dreams have reached all the way to this list. i
can't know what dreams mean to others, just what they meat to me at
one point in time.
prevalence of hugs in the story indicate the family and cultist likely
were big huggers
women dislike long term submission, but don't necessarily speak of it
- often after cultist decides to leave and says farewell to cult
member, a countering cult intervention can happen
thinking about how the interventions involve a group of people. this
is likely much safer than an individual
- an intervention was performed for the husband, after the wife left.
- emotional problems present after leaving, from long-term cult involvement
what an inspirational chapter. one section left.
- Roy Masters is a professional hypnotist who recruits via selling
meditation audiotapes that beginni indoctrination and is still doing
it
- also does stage exorcism, maybe he could enslave me by removing my evil spirit
- author took time to describe how cultist's parents were behaving
erratically, driving dog and child crazy by giving contradictory
information. this made it hard to find a family draw out of the group;
the group seemed better than the family.
- lack of family stability and finances made it hard to figure out how
to provide an environment for enjoying leaving cult
- it's fruitful to engage support groups with the resources to provide
a healing environment for cultist
- successfuly intervention requires at least three full days of counseling
ch coda
- people will do anything for what they believe is truly right, but
nobody wants to waste time on harmful lies
- phobia against leaving is addressed, then contact with the true self
is made, and the person usually chooses to leave when learning what
was done to them
- important for people to understand that good things happen in cults
too, and these good tghings must be remembered
- belonging to a destructive cult changes you forever
- leaving a cult engages a time of sitting naked with oneselfe and
reanalyse one's entire knowledge and beliefs. this can be liberating
and terrifying. it's a new beginning.
the scary moment of trancy change, when you could become anyone.
deprogrammers engage it assertivelty and frequentyl.
but they would know about when it is engaged for harm.
i believe in deep respect being held at such times. from a well of
deep respect, comes rebuilding.
