"I mean, The Just-Us system's "only be for us peasants, right, massah?"."
Nice little lick there.
I also think that some cypherpunks mistake the Corporate State for what has been described as Crypto-Anarchy. If large corporations in the US and the wealthy happen to ultimately drive the current roundup of civil rights, then they've effectively become the state that some Cypherpunks some vehemently despise. Pointing this out (or at least making the case that this is the state of affairs) should not by any means be equated with socialism (unless of course you actually believe the socialists who maintain this is an inherent byproduct of capitalism). In fact, it's easy to argue that the current Oil Crusade in Iraq is precisely for the purpose of protecting a set of dinosaur industries in the US. That's not the kind of capitalism I think most Cypherpunks espouse.
-TD
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Max's Lesson (was Re: [osint] Martha's lesson - don't talk to the FBI)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:30:17 -0500
[snide preposterous presumptions deleted to save space]
In response to "R. A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I did not in any way or form, either explicitly much less implicitly, make any claim for the expropriation of money from wealthy persons in any form, much less by the state. Much as you'd like to presume that I am just some "socialist" and rant on from there; Whatever you feel you must do to avoid the point.
The point was that there are a thousand other injustices, such as civil asset forfeiture, which effect and have been effecting people of all economic strata for over a decade now (and a lot of other governmental connivances, such as RICO anti-racketeering, and drug prohibition, from which it was spawned). Things that routinely effect not just the Martha Stewarts, or the so-called investor class. Things from which spring forth the presumptive powers which now also threaten the investor class, who had not resisted earlier and deeper erosions of their civil liberties. Things about which the wealthy (and politicians) don't give a rats ass about, because they are a privileged class, by and large, and the laws generally are not applied equally to them as to others. So why should they care? Until one of them has to take a fairly minor fall, and then it's crocodile tears, and poor Martha! Oh the injustice of it all! Screaming meamies, that oh God, how dare they apply the same laws against the wealthy they have been abusing the peasants and workers with all these years?! The travesty of it! You see, people like you only have a problem when you can't "buy your way out of trouble". I mean, The Just-Us system's "only be for us peasants, right, massah?".
Martha is just a token sacrifice for appearances sake, to appease the masses and protect the status quo from any serious reform. So Martha goes to Club Fed for a short stint, and business basically goes on as usual. Is it Justice? Nah, Just-Us.. maybe, especially if it maintains the privilege system intact and beyond serious scrutiny or reform.
It is rather telling that you have completely sidestepped anything I mentioned (aside from making false assumptions).
At 05:49 PM 3/24/2004, , "R. A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So, Max, as a socialist, an unwitting user of such lies as "movement", or "(un)just state", as someone who believes that the *earned* property of "the rich" should be confiscated, or that
There we go with nonsensical presumptions and stereotyping again. I could pull out my own label for you my friend, but that would be really pointless. I believe that earned property of ANY strata of society should be safe from arbitrary seizure or confiscation. It is rather amusing how you have put words in my mouth which are not there, and then spend all your time kicking down your own non-existant straw man.
You want to mock "justness" of the laws of the State...? Well then, what is your beef about Martha then? If the state is inherently a manifestation of unjust cronyism (as you seem to claim), does that become an argument that somehow we should NOT strive to make the system MORE uniformly just and therefore abuse of power less common and arbitrary? I mean, that's just the way it is... but then, you shouldn't be whining about poor Martha. That's just the way States are, you know. But I guess we come back to the double standard, and as long as the "wealth exemption" comes into play, then you really don't concern yourself with such an "inherently socialist" (as you might say) concept as JUSTICE?
"marketing" should be controlled by force, welcome to the other side of the looking glass. The *real* side of the looking glass, I might add, where the "justice" of the state is simply another not-so-polite fiction to keep power.
Alas, you were so quick to falsely label me a socialist, that you did not read what I wrote. Needless to say, I in no way called for any such "forceful" control of "marketing" as you inventively and deceptively implied. Not to worry, I try to buy as little meaningless shit as possible from this disposable vacuous society. But at the same time, I encourage people to see the emptiness for what it is. The things you own end up owning you, and it can all blow away in a storm faster than you realize (therefore, governments and insurance). Bread and circuses is a sure signpost on the way down, we've seen it before. Avoid facing reality long enough, and the head kick of reality will be that much more forceful when it finally comes. Like chickens coming home to roost.. kind of like what we are currently experiencing... but I digress...
Hanging out on this list is a sure cure for such mental delusions. It worked for me, anyway. :-).
Worry not, that I have no delusions that this "System" in any way represents me, much less has the slightest concerns about civil liberties or any of the foundational concepts upon which this country was philosophically based, much less the most basic sense of honesty or simple humanitarianism. And by humanitarianism, you don't have to feed, clothe, etc everybody at "taxpayer expense", however, a good start would be a much better discretion about how our nation haphazardly flings around bombs and destabilizes large swaths of the globe. Our congress, etc are bought and paid for, and both (dictated-media-viable) sides at that. Corporate Clown A (Bush) or Corporate Clown B (Kerry). Corporations that, by their "perpetual" nature and concentrated wealth, have subverted our system by an inappropriate and unjustified percentage of "representation", that violates the conecpt of one man one vote, and perverts and distorts our government into sheerly absurd tyranny.
See, for all the hee-hawing of the investor thief classes about presumptions of "worth" and "value" which is oftentimes claimed as earned, but quite often is fraudulently swindled from the hard work of others, and the bland assurances that "this is all good for us", yet our senses tell us that things are in decline. We as a nation are less stable, less secure, and most people are working much harder, for much less; courtesy WorldCom/Enron/Tyco/Parmalat thievery. Outsourcing is an excellent example of just such a swindle -- a devaluation of labor for short-term profits, which will only lead to massive wage erosion, decline of the standard of living in the west, and a subsequent economic decline as working people can no longer afford housing and basic necessities. All and well and fine that the corporates do not see the storm rising, from their outsourcing, and how it will cost them very dearly in the coming future. The so-called "war on terror", beyond being a perpetual war-profiteers wet dream, is the smokescreen being used to raise up a militarist police state to suppress the coming domestic instability which will inevitably arise from a massive decline in the American standard of living.
You might, in the meantime, try Googling "crypto-anarchy" or "anarcho-capitalism" and/or "cypherpunks", or "Tim May" and "cryptonomicon" (no not *that* cryptonomicon, the *original* one...), which will probably, in the process, find you a currently working version of several archives of this list that have arisen over the last decade. I'd start at the beginning, around September 1992.
Kind of busy reading more practical material, such as the intricacies of smashing stacks and bypassing filters, or timely and relevant, such as "The Sorrows of Empire" by Chalmers Johnson.
It's not that hard. You only need to read the first two months of the archives before things start to repeat themselves. ;-).
If I want repetition, I can just watch CNN (or buy a parrot), thank you very much!
Cheers, RAH
Max
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