We held the meeting in appear.in/cyrus (which didn't work so well) and then later in Google Hangouts, which was better. Side channel was IRC.
The entire IRC log for the session is pasted below. I'll summarise it here: My agenda/notes that I came into the meeting with: * Welcome * Meeting times? * 2.5 / 3.0 - timelines * Cyrus SASL? * Infrastructure * Docs * Tasks * the email from Dec 25th last year with outline of long-term goals in my head for Cyrus IMAPd. Welcome: * Thanks everyone! Really great to have so many people involved Meeting times : * we need to include US East, Europe and Melbourne. For now, it looks like early US and late Aus might work best for Ellie and Bron's family will have to lump it! We'll see how that works out. Might do one early, one late so we have different times of day for people. * Plan at the moment is Monday Night/Friday morning Melbourne time. Timeline: * 2.5 March 1st * 3.0 alpha May 1st * 3.0 release July 20th. * Agressive, but doable with the people we have at hand. Yay us. Cyrus SASL: * We want to include it under this umbrella. It needs a champion. Infrastructure: * Jenkins - ci.cyrusimap.org - need to get it work again and following key branches * Other test framework? Package builds/architectures supported. Non-Intel will need to find someone to provide hardware. * Website - outdated and not designed with use-cases of the people likely to arrive as the key thing. Needs love. * Will keep using CMU mailing lists, they are known, work well, and are already archived by search engines. * Task management - Jeroen to investigate Phabricator - http://phabricator.org/ * Wiki/discussions? Etherpad is quite popular right now, both CalConnect and Mozilla use it. Maybe we should too. * The final canonical source will always be things posted to the mailing list, because (a) we're email people, and (b) everyone gets an immutable copy. Docs: * We really need better documentation. ASIDE: My "grand vision" is for Cyrus to be easy to install and run by someone who isn't already a Cyrus expert. Our tech is great, but our docs aren't. We need to fix some of the technical things to make it easier to run, but we also need great docs, both the website and distributed with the code. It should be apt-get install/yum install => working IMAP server. Even docker/VMs. * Anthony knows a tech writer in Toronto who is good and may be looking for work. * Jeroen has access to Kolab writers in Czech. * We have Jeroen and ^Simon^ already working on documentation. * Somebody needs to take overall responsibility for the shape of the documentation, the tooling, and the website. This may be one of the mentioned people above, or someone else. We will decide soon. ASIDE: My planned management style for this project is to have a people take ownership for each area that needs work. The entire group (in these meetings) is responsible for agreeing on overall goals and re-assessing them based on our actual progress over time. The individual area owners are responsible for either doing the necessary work, or finding someone else to do it for them. Tasks: * referring mainly to my email on Dec 25th, 2014. Tons of stuff we want to do. * For Cyrus 2.5 - next week: - Bron - replication protocol - Ellie - upgrade path testing - Chris - Jenkins - get it testing with existing Cassandane * Long sidebar about how a bunch of people hate Perl and think that tests written in Perl are unmaintainable. Crybabies. I don't particularly care what language they are written in, so long as they are usable and test the right things. * There's an imaptest engine from Dovecot that we should wrap and use as well. * For Cyrus 3.0 - we need to prioritise from the list: 1) standards support 2) new features 3) regressions/bugs * Support roles - documentation, QA (we have Chris a bit - maybe we want someone else as well?) * standards - there has been some great work on sieve support from a couple of sources. We just need to integrate it. * SASL - someone needs to take responsibility * Test infrastructure and task management system is needed to keep track of what's being worked on. ACTIONS: * Ken to keep working on CardDAV/CalDAV with a goal for 3.0 having great support for both * Anthony to look into QA and Tech Writer options he knows * Jeroen to look at setting up phabricator and other infrastructure for the project * Bron to get replication for 2.5 ready and release alpha * Ellie to keep working on testbeds and learning her way around the code NEXT MEETING: * Monday 11pm Melbourne time (7am US East Coast, 1pm Europe) IRC log (awful formatting 'r' us) bron> ok, I'm here kanari> good for you kanari> how's the audio? 1rob21 well bron sounds like bron ^Simon> audio isn't too bad. achow> i'm sure there is a Monty Pthon skit in that statment bron> I can hear Ken fine kanari> room is too crowded ^Simon> who is who? bron> roll call ;) 1bron21 Bron and Ellie in the FastMail boardroom kanari> who can pop out to let me back in? rob> kanarip: I'm out, go for it tibbs|> I just left as well. bron> thanks robn kanari> got it, thanks robn achow> URL? rob> I'm just a nosey fastmailer, don't need to be there :) rob> achowe: https://appear.in/cyrus kanari> are you guys still ok on the audio though? ^Simon> I'm someone with no video and no audio :) bron> cool ^Simon^ :) Welcome achow> Says Sorry the room is too crowded ^Simon> achowe - I'll logout if you want to participate bron> First point - technology for future meetings? bron> suggestions that scale better? tibbs|> Hangouts, probably. ^Simon> skype (maybe) kanari> yes, google talk tibbs|> Skype, but... OS support not terribly good. kanari> google talk/hangouts bron> OK achow> voice only VoIP phone bridge bron> sounds like one of those kanari> no need to be a freeby treehugger about it ;-) bron> I will put it on my list for next time tibbs|> Plain old conference call? bron> timelines as per email bron> March 1st 2.5 bron> May 1st 3.0 alpha bron> July 20 30 release bron> agressive but probably doable kanari> +1 kanari> ! kanari> what (hopefully limited) features do we seek to include in 3.0? bron> SASL bron> if we can incorporate it, that would be great bron> but need someone to champion it bron> sorry, whoever that is bron> it's too choppy to hear achow> "broken and stupid" kanari> i agree it is way too choppy, i haven't heard anyone for over a minute achow> all static achow> what planet we one? achow> we on? bron> kanarip: are you still in? bron> do you want to talk about infrastructure bron> that's the next point kanari> no, there's nothing about any of it in appear.in that i could either hear, follow or contribute to kanari> as in, i'm not in any longer achow> i left the room bron> kanarip: we're talking about etherpad bron> for sharing thoughts/discussions/minutes achow> google doc? bron> kmurchison has good experience in the Calconnect world with it kanari> beta.etherpad.ca bron> and Mozilla use it a lot kanari> crap, where was it bron> server not found for me kanari> https://beta.etherpad.org/ bron> let's say "will look into that" bron> testing: ci server bron> have asked Chris from FastMail to look into getting jenkins back working/stable kanari> don't tell me appear.in is actually working for all of you though? achow> I;ve used google doc to share info and it has revision history bron> kanarip: no, it's shit bron> achowe: OK bron> let's choose one of those :) bron> I think we all have Google accounts bron> everyone is kinda forced to for at least testing :) achow> give something new for my tablet to play with 1^Simon21 kanarip - I can hear bron fine bron> mailing list will still be communication hub kanari> yes, let's move to a hangout of sorts or sth. achow> sith? bron> do we want to try that now? bron> the hangout? ^Simon> achowe - sth = something achow> sure bron> someone want to set it up? kanari> we have to find out something that scales one way or the other, no? 9* 19ohamada_ (~ohamada@2a00:1028:96ca:39d6:5e51:4fff:fe7a:7c86) has joined #cyrus 9* 19nic_ ([email protected]) has joined #cyrus kanari> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g4xnqjjb5zvomzeb4kqvja3fz4a?hl=en 3* 23ohamada has quit (23Read error: Connection reset by peer23) kanari> if that is even the address one is supposed to use... 3* 23nic_ has quit (23Client Quit23) kanari> nope kanari> i keep getting an install plugin dialog even after i've installed the plugin ^Simon> it's asking to install a plugin... protagonis> try it in chrome, haha dhoffen>i'm already in dhoffen>maybe cause i've used it before back in the days i guess bron> I'm in achow> so who's hangout? bron> I'm in the hangout that kanarip posted bron> technology is sucking again bron> let's keep talking here bron> so Docs bron> it's our major failing protagonis> I'm in the hangout too bron> I guess I should talk grand sweeping vision for a bit 1protagonis21 hey, i can see brong even! kanari> now i'm in bron> major goal is to make Cyrus usable/good for people who aren't already Cyrus experts ^Simon> my laptop is struggling with the video ;) bron> and I want it to be easy to run bron> manage bron> backup bron> link to existing auth systems bron> etc 3* 23ribx has quit (23Ping timeout: 240 seconds23) ^Simon> I'm listening. 9* 19deuterium ([email protected]) has joined #cyrus bron> ^Simon^: do you have anything to add on docs? bron> notes: were talking about Docs. Jeroen and ^Simon^ have a starting point on docs bron> need a tech writer bron> potentially someone in Toronto, or Jeroen knows people ^Simon> Nothing to add really, but I'm happy to take contributions and add them to what we have bron> thanks bron> we need someone to talk overall responsibility for docs ^Simon> direction for adding to the docs is important definitely.. there's too much to just fix in one go. 9* 19nic_ ([email protected]) has joined #cyrus ^Simon> yes. ^Simon> http://www.leaky.org/cyrus/guide/admin/twofive-newfeatures.html bron> for 2.5, doc goal is just to cover upgrades protagonis> those docs will be easy bron> goal: yum/apt-get/emerge cyrus-imapd and you are ready to use IMAP bron> that's it protagonis> apt-get install! protagonis> EOF bron> OK bron> so we're done here then, right? bron> infrastructure: web presence bron> website was revamped 3-4 years ago, but not necessarily up to par bron> in terms of usability bron> documentation comes from HTML in git repo, SCPed over bron> marketting stuff - facebook/twitter/etc bron> link to new news item bron> bugzilla isn't necessarily the right tool bron> need to deliberate process moving forward bron> something more like a commercial product type of blurb? protagonis> I dunno, the front page has prominent download links, documentation links, "What is Cyrus?", and News bron> branding company in the UK which revamped Kolab website protagonis> we are talking about http://www.cyrusimap.org/ right? bron> yes bron> could look for professional marketting, or have this fall under the tech writer role bron> Kolab have marketting people on the payroll too bron> frontpage: lean, mean and to the point ^Simon> for easy-to-use, the "download" part of the website should perhaps suggest using one of the distribution packages (as long as they're up to date) rather than downloading and compiling the source. bron> absolutely bron> we should be building distro packages ourselves bron> including nightlies nic> yes to building packages ourselves. bron> we should be catering to the consumers - say better that Dovecot/Exchange/etc... bron> website/wiki/issue tracking ^Simon> time based releases a bit like centos 7? 7.1406 or whatever it is with the 1406 being the year/month it was released? achow> JIRA for ticket tracking https://www.atlassian.com/ ^Simon> isn't JIRA really resource intensive? bron> ^Simon^: we had hosted JIRA bron> on their servers bron> it took 30 seconds to generate the main page tibbs|> ^Simon^: Are you Simon Matter? ^Simon> No. tibbs|> Seemed a reasonable guess. bron> tasks for everyone for 2.5 1bron21 Bron - replication protocol bron> Ellie - upgrade path testing bron> Chris - Jenkins 1kanari21 brong, is saying the replication protocol for 2.5 needs to be amended to include per-message annotations bron> QA professional - Anthony knows somebody bron> check lists of distributions we're willing to look after bron> NetBSD ;) 1bron21 Bron - work out which tests are failing and why ^Simon> nothing wrong with perl :) ^Simon> python? bron> test suite bron> perl/python/ruby - whatever bron> I don't care too much tibbs|> Whoever does the work picks the language? kanari> +1 ;-) tibbs|> I would just remove what you want to remove in 3.0 without adding anything. 3* 23nic_ has quit (23Ping timeout: 245 seconds23) bron> major breakage - UnixHS always on tibbs|> Yes, in what way do things actually break? bron> it means all the folder names change for everyone tibbs|> Unless you have unixhierarchysep: 1 altnamespace: 1, I guess. protagonis> we have unixhierarchysep:0 here... tibbs|> I have both set to 1, because it seemed to make the most sense to me. ^Simon> we have unixHS: 1, but altnamespace is whatever the default is. ^Simon> anything that doesn't cause our users to get confused would be ok :) bron> 3 major buckets of work bron> 1) standards support bron> 2) new features bron> 3) bug fixes/regressions tibbs|> Looks like I got lucky. ^Simon> cyberpear = James Cassell? tibbs|> That is what my nicklist shows. bron> thanks James for the variables/imap4flags :) bron> we need to make a list of exactly what we want to support ^Simon> the dovecot docs might have a list of rfcs they support? 9* 19nic_ ([email protected]) has joined #cyrus ^Simon> presumably cyrus should implement most of those bron> yeah, imapwiki has some good stuff bron> and I did some work a while back ^Simon> GTUBE and EICAR ^Simon> that's down to the MTA surely. ^Simon> exim/postfix/etc 3* 23ohamada_ has quit (23Quit: Leaving23) ^Simon> the documentation should have some examples of how to hook it into various MTAs via lmtpd etc tibbs|> I have been ordered by legal to delete messages from all user mailboxes. tibbs|> But, yeah, scanning things after the fact is useful. But then, can't you just use the imap protocol to do all of that? bron> tibbs|w: you can if you can proxy auth tibbs|> Well, connect as admin so you can see the entire folder hierarchy. bron> ^Simon^: definitely should have docs for how to hook up bron> yep bron> that works too tibbs|> But yeah, I use proxy auth for some of these things. ^Simon> cyrus-imapd cyrus-imapd-docs cyrus-imapd-xapian ? ^Simon> separate packages to add in other functions 1rob21 brong: xapian snippet patches still need to go upstream bron> yeah, xapian snippet patches tibbs|> I thought a lot of webmail systems did that. nic> Several distros seem to prefer to separate packages into functionality groups (i.e. Debian) but this can create extra documentation overhead 3* 23kanarip has quit (23Read error: error:1408F119:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_RECORD:decryption failed or bad record mac23) tibbs|> Oh, yes. 9* 19kanarip (~vanmeeuwe@2a02:120b:c3f8:5720:12c3:7bff:fe9d:e4c8) has joined #cyrus bron> Kolab has tooling for importing from various files into IMAP tibbs|> Being able to do proper backups would make doing cyrus version updates far less pucker-intensive. tibbs|> We use whenisgood.net for this kind of thing. ^Simon> how "middle of day" for UTC? kanari> right about precisely mid day nic> what is Google+ hangout URI for this? tibbs|> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g4xnqjjb5zvomzeb4kqvja3fz4a?hl=en kanari> nic_, we're just about wrapping up though dhoffen>have a good night. I'm just a visitor/user anyway :) kanari> thanks dhoffend dhoffen>done enough ptclient bughunting for this night :/ very strange stuff :-) bron> and we're done :) kanari> excellent meeting... bron> it's not going to be an hour and a half next time! achow> hangout worked out really well bron> yep tibbs|> Well that was interesting. kanari> ran over time just by the amount one would expect for a first meeting ;-) bron> I'll be actively killed if I'm up that late bron> :) -- Bron Gondwana [email protected]
