Hi Bryan, I've bounced your mail do debian-blends list.
Am Mon, Mar 27, 2023 at 09:40:43PM -0500 schrieb Bryan Hammond: > Hi Andreas > > I did as you suggested, and read almost all of the posts in > https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/ I read slowly so it took a > while. Unless it was just that the key programmers who were involved from > 2003 to sometime in 2006 just got too busy with other work to see it > through, I don't know why it was dropped. In Feb 2007 there were several > posts about dropping that list, all agreeing with that, but several > expressing some disappointment that it hadn't worked out. Benjamin Mako Hill > wrote "I would love to see this project revived, but..." I've copied names > and email addresses for those who I think were most into the project, but > before emailing to see if they'd consider reviving it, I'm wondering: > > * when I finish a draft of my nonprofit peer-peer software proposal, > Where should I post it? To the general mailing list for > submissions?______ [email protected], which would be my > preference since more people might read and consider it, or > https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/ *______* IMHO debian-nonprofit is more appropriate - may be you use that list and keep debian-blends in CC. > * As is, it starts with a minor intro to the software's use, then > over half a page makes the case as to WHY I think it is extremely > urgent to try to motivate the NGOs (and I include co-ops and unions) > of the world to communicate and cooperate to an unprecedented degree > - first among themselves, then in a coordinated and collective > outreach to the general public; then the HOW/WHAT - I suggest some > things I hope the software can help them accomplish. I'm thinking > that sequence - 1) a minor intro, then 2) the "WHY"s of its urgency > due to worsening current world conditions, then 3) most "HOW and > WHAT" details following - would perhaps motivate more programmers to > consider, and conclude that it would be a very urgent and timely > Debian project worth working on. However, from something you wrote > previously, I'm wondering if you think I should put all the WHAT > details I'm advocating first, followed by the WHY's ?________ > * Such a Pure Blend could not only serve that massive communication > process better than anything else I can think of, but give NGOs, > Co-ops, activist groups in general an extra incentive to make the > switch from Windows to Debian > * BTW my proposal, as is, is about 3-4 pages of 12 point text, with > add'l 2 pages of Endnotes (mainly links, and a few quotes). Is that > too big to submit to a mailing list?_____ I think its best to put it online somewhere and link to its location. > There is just one more new paragraph, inserted about 1 screen down from > here. > > Thanks for any help with this, To say the truth I do not feel in the position to provide any measurable help for your project. Kind regards Andreas. > Bryan > > > > On 2023-03-10 00:52, Andreas Tille wrote: > > Hi Bryan, > > > > Am Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 12:24:21PM -0600 schrieb Bryan Hammond: > > Hi Andreas > > > > Thanks Very much for that prompt reply! > > You have my permission to post/relay my email to that > > "[email protected]' list. *In fact, please do relay it for me.* > > > > Though I've been using a computer and email extensively since Jan 87, I've > > never used a mailing list - and don't know how, yet. I'll learn soon, but > > that email is urgent and I think its great that you're going to post it > > where it will probably come to the attention to the most appropriate people > > on the planet. > > Well, using a mailing list ist simple: You write to that mailing list > > address. You can find the mailing list archive here: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-blends/ > > > > > Thank you, and the many others, who create these Debian Pure Blends - and > > > Debian itself. Its the best example of international activist cooperation > > > and collaboration that I know of! I just hope the CSOs/NGOs whom this > > > blend > > > would be for will set as good an example, by making prompt and holistic > > > use > > > of it. > > How can you promise that people working in CSOs/NGOs will make prompt > > and holistic use? Do you have some grip on a certain amount of such > > organisations to replace their current software setup by something else? > I can't be sure that many NGOs, co-ops, unions, activist orgs in general, > will make that software switch, BUT I'm hoping that by: 1) giving a summary > of the rapidly deteriorating world conditions - and backing it up with links > to very credible people emphasizing the urgency of dealing with the > problems, and 2) links that strongly make the case that the prevailing > neoliberal corporate/investor-serving governments are NOT going to act > quickly enough - if at all, and 3) therefore humanity's best hope is for the > whole spectrum of Caring activists of the world to unite on a grand > unprecedented scale ASAP, and collectively do what has to be done... and 4) > in that context make the case there is little - if anything - that could > better help those activists unite on the scale they must, as rapidly as they > must - than software that simplifies their communicating, planning, > cooperating, collaborating, and coordinating to do so. In my opinion a > Debian Pure Blend can best serve those, and more, purposes. > > > > I'm afraid you have a too optimistic illusion how Free Software works > > that there is someone sitting down for coding with the only goal to make > > other people happy - but see below for my more detailed answer. ;-) > > > On 2023-03-09 11:46, Andreas Tille wrote: > > > > Hi Bryan, > > > > > > > > just a "warning": We have the mailing list > > > > [email protected] where mails like this are perfectly > > > > on topic. I have the very bad habit to violate netiquette and bounce > > > > such private mails to public lists to give my answer in public where > > > > it belongs to. > > > > > > > > So either please resent your mail to the mailing list (there is no > > > > need to subscribe this pretty low volume list - but in case you are > > > > not subscribed just add a note and ask people to keep you in CC which > > > > is not default) or give me permission to answer right in public > > > > quoting you. > > > > > > > > Next time I'll do so without warning. ;-) > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot for your interest in Debian Pure Blends > > > > > > > > Andreas. > > I just keep my first answer here as information how I usually dealThanks > > for any help with this, > > > > Bryan > > with e-mails sent to my private address if its about team topics. > > > > > > Am Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 11:37:43AM -0600 schrieb Bryan Hammond: > > > > > Hello Andreas > > > > > > > > > > Since you seem to be the key author of the Pure Blends Manual, I've > > > > > sent > > > > > this to you, hoping you will discuss it with the appropriate Debian > > > > > developers. > > As a general note: Please always try to reach a team for your own > > profit. The person you have in mind could be on vaccation, overly busy, > > not interested any more, whatever. > > > > > > > What I’m hoping is that a “Debian Pure Blend” will be created to > > > > > serve the > > > > > activists of the world, who on the common ground of compassion and > > > > > intelligence, are working to do the best they can - in whatever ways > > > > > - to > > > > > help create viable alternative systems based on cooperation. The > > > > > Pure Blend > > > > > would be designed *specifically to enable any coalition of well-known > > > > > and > > > > > trusted CSO's/NGOs*, in any city - who are willing to collectively > > > > > create a > > > > > node for the use of the whole spectrum of activist orgs. in that city > > > > > - to > > > > > quickly become part of a local to global P2P mega network. This Pure > > > > > Blend > > > > > would be able to do as many as possible of the things those NGOs would > > > > > collectively want to do. The software would also be designed so that > > > > > when > > > > > they are ready, they can securely connect with other nodes/cities who > > > > > have > > > > > reached the point they too are ready to connect with other nodes. > > This project existed and had its own mailing list: > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/ > > > > Please note the '[dead list]' comment. The Blend that was started at a > > time when the concept was known as "Debian Custom Distributions" (we > > dropped this name since it was to confusing) was named Debian NGO. > > > > > > > Though it wouldn't be my decision to make, ideally creation of this > > > > > Pure > > > > > Blend would be a collaborative effort between Debian developers, and > > > > > a broad > > > > > spectrum of trusted activist individuals and NGO leadership - with the > > > > > collective expertise to proceed comprehensively and wisely. At first > > > > > it > > > > > should probably only be securely distributed to their NGO counterparts > > > > > around the world. After a secure local to global P2P network of > > > > > these nodes > > > > > is reliably functional, the general membership of any member NGOs > > > > > would be > > > > > able to connect to their local node, and through it to others of their > > > > > choice. They could quickly zero in on who has or needs what - and > > > > > share > > > > > whatever info they please as securely and quickly as possible - > > > > > locally, > > > > > nationally, and/or inter-nationally. Maybe at that point it wouldn’t > > > > > matter > > > > > if this Pure Blend were made available to the general public. > > > > > > > > > > Doing this will probably give humanity its best chance to Unite to an > > > > > unprecedented degree, and enable a just transition to a viable local > > > > > to > > > > > global system of systems - based on compassion and intelligence - and > > > > > capable of surviving on a habitable, and still beautiful, planet. It > > > > > will > > > > > also be the biggest boost to GNU/Linux software that there has yet > > > > > been. > > > > > > > > > > I've written a more detailed proposal, just under 3 pages, with about > > > > > 3 > > > > > pages of endnotes - links to quotes and interviews mainly - that > > > > > emphasize > > > > > the urgent need for the Caring People of Earth to work together as > > > > > never > > > > > before, and ASAP. > > Where did you wrote this. Do you have some link? > > > > > > > There may be points therein that could be of practical > > > > > use to a Debian team interested in developing a Pure Blends such as > > > > > described above. The following interview with Noam Chomsky emphasizes > > > > > the > > > > > urgency. > > > > > Noam Chomsky: “We’re approaching the most dangerous point in human > > > > > history” > > > > > - New > > > > > Statesman<https://www.newstatesman.com/encounter/2022/04/noam-chomsky-were-approaching-the-most-dangerous-point-in-human-history> > > > > > > > > > > Attached are scans of a magazine I founded in Winnipeg, Manitoba in > > > > > 1988. > > > > > Though it was only published for a few years, I'm hoping that a > > > > > similar > > > > > magazine - with sections for international, national, > > > > > provincial/state, > > > > > city, and perhaps distinct communities within a city - will become > > > > > one of > > > > > the projects of all such city nodes, once they are ready to make > > > > > collective > > > > > outreach to the general public. They could feature a lot of "big > > > > > names" > > > > > respected by a broad spectrum of society. Life on Earth has probably > > > > > deteriorated enough that finally, a majority of people around the > > > > > world will > > > > > be eager to participate in such a grand collective effort. > > I admit I personally subscribe to all your points. On the other hand > > I'm afraid we will not save the world by just creating a Blend for NGOs. > > > > > > > I'm not a programmer, but hope I may be useful as a catalyst to help > > > > > kindle > > > > > this. I recently posted these ideas in the FSF's Associate Member > > > > > Forum. > > Now we come to the weak part of your proposal and you possibly too > > optimistic view on how Free Software works. In payed software business > > (no matter under what license this software might be distributed) there > > is some mind with money that is handed over to programmers who just > > realise these ideas. You seem to imagine there is a wide resource of > > gifted programmers that are just waiting for this mind to speak out > > great ideas and than these programmers start working on this task. > > > > First of all: Even in the payed programming the programmer needs a real > > specication of the job. I can't see this in your mail (except for the > > hint to a more detailed proposal). > > > > But Debian (and probably the whole software world) works differently. > > In the beginning a person has some idea or need, turns it into code and > > publishes this code to provide some solution to people with similar > > needs hoping some of these people will contribute enhancements. In > > Debian we call this principle "Do-O-cracy": Those who do the work decide > > what finally gets done. > > > > So the first and most important step in getting some free software > > solution started is that someone provides some sensible solution or at > > least something that is promising in some direction and *than* find > > people who have the same problem and contribute to this solution. > > > > Your mail boils down to: I believe in you (which is a great compliment > > - thank you for this) and now please do something (which does not work). > > > > The good news is that probably lots of puzzle stones of what you are > > seeking for exists and crafting a Blend is just joining those puzzle > > stones to the image you have in mind. But its your task (may be by > > the help of someone who is comfortable with the technical background) > > to pick those puzzle stones and join them. May be your mail here on > > this list will help finding someone. I promise to help you (and your > > small crew you might find) with technical **details**. But I do not > > have any spare minute to start things from scratch. > > > > The founder of Debian NGO in 2003 was Benjamin Mako Hill. You can find > > his e-mail address and the names of other contributors / interested > > persons in the mailing list archive. You might consider re-vitalising > > the old mailing list. And may be you read this mailing list archive[2] > > first to find some clue what might have been the reason that people > > did not followed that project idea from about 20 years ago to make sure > > the mistakes made at this time will not be repeated in future. > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > Bryan Hammond > > Hope this helps > > Andreas. > > > > [1]https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy > > [2]https://lists.debian.org/debian-nonprofit/ > > -- http://fam-tille.de
