Hi Russ, At 2026-07-12T16:12:21-0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > "G. Branden Robinson" <[email protected]> writes: > > This change is too bad, as it defeats the _user_-configurability of > > `TP` tag spacing from its paragraph--but as with adjustment and > > hyphenation, POD's policy is that the _reader_ of a man page is not > > permitted to alter these--two horses have already bolted, so what's > > a third? > > Yeah, you shot yourself in the foot with that one, and I don't see an > easy way for you to repair the damage given that groff 1.24 is already > out in the wild.
Hmm. F*** me, then, eh? > If you had not chosen to change the default tag separation for .TP, I > wouldn't have needed to override it, and thus your reader > configuration desire could have been achieved. I would be happy to > support user configuration, but not at the cost of backward > compatibility. I saw "too many" man pages where a tagged paragraph (`TP`) was indistinguishable from a hanging paragraph (`HP`) because, if the tag is just the right size, exactly one space separates the first word from the rest of the paragraph. One might point out that by also un-deprecating the original 1979 man(7) `HP` macro, which groff_man(7) had discouraged users from using for about 15 years, I was needlessly entangling those issues, and should have left `HP` deprecated for another release, or N years, or so. But `HP` turns out to be useful if you want to set a command or function synopsis and also not to embrace the groff_man(7) extensions for doing so, `SY`, and `YS`. (Because your man pages need to be portable to Solaris 10, for example.) I had a user who was actually communicating with me and was expressing a historically consistent use case I wanted to support. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-findutils/2025-12/msg00009.html > (As we've previously discussed, hyphenation and adjustment are a > harder problem because in those cases pod2man already had a > long-standing practice of changing the default back when end-user > configuration was not supported, and finding a way to support both, > and all of the already-released versions of groff, is complex.) True. Turns out, they're not the only things that are complex. > Perhaps a lesson for the future is that if you want to make something > user-adjustable, it is crucial that you not also change the default at > the same time and thus leave document authors no choice but to ignore > groff_man(7) and override the default if they want to preserve the > existing rendering of their document as the default. That's one potential lesson. Another is that maintainers of man(7)-generation tools are jealous of "stylesheet"-level issues, and don't want readers of man pages fooling with them. I imagine that highly paid web site designers feel the same way about Stylus...[1] For context in the next point, I'll need to restore some quoted material from comment #82... > > > In addition, groff 1.24 also broke .TP formatting in a more minor > > > way by increasing the tag separation from 1n to 2n, which will > > > likely cause unintended tag spilling onto a separate line in the > > > cases where the indent was carefully chosen to leave just enough > > > room for the tag and a single space. This pattern is very common > > > in POD documents; those are unaffected, of course, since pod2man > > > has always used .IP, but from that I would conclude that it's > > > probably also common in hand-written documents. > > > > I don't share your assessment that it's "very common". > > It's certainly common in POD documents that I have written. I'm confused because what I was replying to was your statement that "POD documents are unaffected, since pod2man has always used .IP". > I did indeed not check to see if other people followed me in that and > perhaps they do not anywhere near as much as I thought. I will note > that this change broke the formatting of literally the first POD > document I looked at (Pod::Man's own manual page), but of course that > document was one I wrote. This bug report is about groff's `IP` macro changing to _not honor tag separation_. How did the tag separation _amount_ change break Pod::Man? As you noted, there were multiple changes here: * The tag separation became user-customizable via the `TS` register; * `TP` imposes the amount in `TS` as a minimal separation between its "tag" and the paragraph indentation; * `IP` does not enforce "tag separation" (because its "mark" argument is not a "tag"), but historically did enforce what we might call a "mark separation" of 1n; and * I changed the tag separation amount from 1n to 2n. All of these, I documented in the "NEWS" file--but, as we've established, people won't type "/man" in their pager to see if any changes affect the man(7) package, even if they consider themselves a man(7) stakeholder. It seems I have to flag something as a "Noteworthy incompatible change" to get their attention. But that, as it turns out, is pointless: As you said in comment #77 to this bug: > All of groff's semantics are ultimately about rendering and > formatting. That is literally the only reason why anyone uses the > software. ...so all changes that affect output _in any way_ are "noteworthy incompatible changes", and we're back to the problem of people having too much to read, and skipping it, effectively boycotting the feedback process that release candidates are made to stimulate. I have my own classification scheme that I apply to groff, since it's a complex system of several component parts. It also implements a Turing-complete language (*roff itself) and multiple other language substrates: eqn(1), pic(1), and the macro languages of several macro packages, one of which, mdoc(7), implements its own macro processor on to top of *roff's. You can find that classification scheme on the GNU Savannah site. https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/admin/field_values.php?group_id=273&field=bug_group_id&list_value=1 As shown there, I distinguish "Incorrect behavio(u)r", where a component violates _documented_ norms, from "Feature changes" which warrant "NEWS" items, and both of these from "Rendering/cosmetics" issues where "output ... is ugly ... but not incorrect and not misrendered such that comprehension is defeated." I observe that permitting confusion of `HP` with `TP` paragraphs _does_ risk defeating comprehension. > Your search methodology would not have caught this because it uses > tags of three characters with an indent of four. No, that's a mischaracterization. I simply grepped the sampled documents for `IP` and `TP` calls, with complete indifference to their arguments or the width of their "marks" or "tags". I'm attaching those raw results for your edification. I produced them with: $ zgrep '^\.[IT]P' $(<ATTIC/SAMPLE ) > /tmp/sample-ip-tp.txt > None of my decisions would change based on whether it is statistically > common, Okay. Then I suggest that the popularity-based argument you pursued in comment #82: > > > This pattern is very common in POD documents; those are > > > unaffected, of course, since pod2man has always used .IP, but from > > > that I would conclude that it's probably also common in > > > hand-written documents. ...has not been productive, and wasted our time. > since it's a pattern I want to support in pod2man. Can you be more specific about _which_ pattern you want to support in pod2man? Are you concerned more with the selection of man(7) macros and the sizes of tag separations in ens, or are you concerned more with: * distinguishing "marks" (paragraph annotations that don't get `IX` calls emitted for them) from "tags" (ones that do, and have semantic value because they're things like syntax keywords that people want to look up); * keeping marks from abutting paragraph text; * permitting marks to abut paragraph text where desired; and * ensuring that tags are always separated from paragraph text? Attend to the phrasing of my question: I present not an all-or-nothing dilemma, but an invitation to express preference or priority. (I include the third item for completeness; I note that you already assigned it zero weight, with astonishment, in comment #77, though you there said "tags". Under my nomenclature, I agree regarding "tags" but not regarding "marks", since I saw "abutting marks" in the wild, employed in groff's own man pages years before I ever contributed to that project.) > Colin can certainly make an independent decision about whether this is > relevant to the configuration of the Debian groff package; my belief > that it is common is just guesswork, and perhaps most cases of this > are via POD documents. Well, if you change your mind about the worth of more rigorously sampling the space of actually existing documents to discern real-world usage patterns, I shall remain Your humble servant, Branden [1] https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/stylus/clngdbkpkpeebahjckkjfobafhncgmne?pli=1
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