[Andreas Barth 2010-03-18] > I agree. I tried to get one such meeting done some time ago (see > below)
Here's my reply from that thread (Matthias or DPL never responsed, or at least I wasn't in the loop) [Piotr Ożarowski, 2009-09-27] > Adding Raphael Hertzog to Cc as he knows the beginning of py{central,support} > saga much better that I do and IMO always tries to find a consensus > instead of arguing till death :-) > > > as part of the recent release mails, we got some - well, "complaints" is > > the wrong word, but definitly in that direction - mails about python2.6 (or > > rather its inexistence in unstable). > > Debian's Python situation is not perfect indeed. I don't know if it was > better in the past - when I joined Debian few years ago it was already > one big minefield[1] which doesn't help maintaining Python packages / > recruiting new developers. > > [1] outdated Debian Python Policy (no consensus about what it should > contain), unwritten rules, 3 different (mostly undocumented) helper > tools, python maintainer not really active (yes, even then, see > reasons for founding DPMT), cdbs not supporting these new tools at > all (dh didn't exist at that time), maintainers forced to do lots of > work in debian/rules in order to satisfy not existing policy, ... > > Let me shortly describe the situation from my perspective (i.e. from a > person who don't know much about what happened in Mexico). > > I started with dh_pysupport (which was the only tool available in > unstable, except dh_python) but switched most of my packages (not all) > to dh_pycentral really soon after that as I thought it was better > designed - it supported Python extensions and didn't provide additional > problems with __file__ and namespace issues (i.e. it stored .pyc files > where everybody expected them to be). After a while, dh_pysupport > started to be more and more mature (Python extensions support, bugs > fixed really fast, additional features like Egg renaming, namespace > (re)generation[2], etc.) and pycentral didn't change much and when it > did change, it broke lots of packages by some internal changes never > announced to anybody. > > [2] IIRC, this was the only change not really well announced/tested and > with wrong (see #459468) defaults in pysupport > > So I took advantage of the fact that nobody really sponsored Python > packages[3] and that many DDs (who were my sponsorees in the past or > whom I helped with some Python related problems) trusted me and decided > to get rid of one of the tools: python-central. And it worked fine, lots > of packages were converted in the last few months. > > [3] see [1] for possible reasons > > Then, after I talked with Matthias (on my first DebConf) and realized > that he will not upload python2.6 until we'll fix the helpers issue once > and for all - I tried to pick up one of his ideas - symlinks (it's > almost perfect solution - the only real problem is the fact that > arch:all packages needs to be rebuilt once list of supported Python > version changes), try to adjust it a little bit (f.e. remove his pet - > "current" keyword), and if it will be accepted - update official Debian > Python Policy... > > That didn't work that well. Surprisingly many developers didn't like the > idea and didn't even want to discuss it[4] and Joss is obviously not > interested in changing status quo as status quo means removing > python-central at some point (so far only Scott didn't want to convert > his packages to python-support, it was very easy to convince other > maintainers - the longest conversation I had was the one with Martin > Krafft - and he just wanted to know why I want to convert his packages, > didn't object much about dropping pycentral). > > [4] I thought we could find a workaround for arch:all binNMUs issue, maybe > some kind of semi-automatic rebuilds that do not suffer from binNMUs > problems... > > > Here's what we plan to do in the near future and what can eventually be > discussed in such meeting (I'm not really sure that such meeting will > change much if both Joss and Matthias will not tell us they're willing > to hear others arguments and make a compromise). > > We are fixing current tools and packages to support changes introduced > in python2.6 which is currently in experimental: > * > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?users=debian-pyt...@lists.debian.org;tag=python2.6 > * cdbs will go to unstable today (I uploaded NMU to DELAYED/7 a week ago) > * I will attach a fix to python-central today or tomorrow > > and then we will add 2.6 to supported versions in NMUs (I will upload > it, I'm so sick of the current situation that I will rather let Matthias > remove my key from Debian keyring than release Squeeze without 2.6 or > force us to do the transition 1 month before the release, like in > Ubuntu). > > If my NMU will be rejected, I plan to hijack python and try to maintain > it in a team of few DDs (don't worry, I'll ask before the hijack, not > after - if nobody will be interested, I will not maintain it alone - > that would make it only worse) - I really don't want this to happen as > Matthias is probably the one who knows more than anyone else about > maintaining Python. I already took a quick look at python bugs to see if > I'm able to fix them. I saw many easy to fix bugs (time consuming, but > easy to fix) or even bugs that are not bugs at all (Python developers > would call them "features" or user broke his system with local > modifications). So... > > Matthias *needs* co-maintainers! Looks like he tries to respond to > serious problems (f.e. he dealt with recent libdb issue) but doesn't > have time at all to process other, less urgent ones. > > I will start proposing NMUs to these bugs (patches are not enough, see > BTS) and if Matthias will like them, at some point I will propose to > accept me as co-maintainer, if not, he'll have proves that he needs one > and I'll try to force him to choose another one. > > Anyway, IMHO what can be discussed in such meeting is what can we do > after the Python 2.6 transition: > * try to fix my dh_python proposal and implement it, or > * remove python-central completely and let python-support use > /usr/lib/python*/*-packages (i.e. official places, without the need to > use .pth files) and keep using /usr/{share,lib}/pyshared to ship > .py/.so files, or: > * 3rd solution, perfect one this time (its author is waiting for a > perfect timing to hit us with it when we'll not expect it ;) > -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645
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