On Tuesday 05 June 2012 13:57:53 Ron wrote: > The problem, and possible solutions, have been patiently explained to you. > If you aren't capable of helping, please stay out from under the feet of > the people who are. Wasting our time foaming about how you don't care > and we should just ignore it isn't helping anyone. > > [blah blah send patches blah, BTW, I did; ed.] > > Hissy fits are not bug reports.
How is the initial report a hissy fit? Show me one place where it is *not* describing a valid issue concerning the operation or usability of the package. Your patient explanation follows, since you do not seem to want to go on the record yourself: (#mumble on Freenode, 2012-06-04, times are CEST) [20:16:41] <ron_> eww. [20:17:48] <ron_> DireFog: btw the BTS wasn't (totally) ignoring you. it just had some issues with load average spiking earlier today ... [20:18:12] <ron_> I am interested to know if there are any problems with the version that hit unstable yesterday though ... [20:18:42] <DireFog> the problem is that the version can't communicate with anyone [20:18:50] <ron_> do you have Opus support? because that's all that one will handle at present [20:18:57] <DireFog> since it doesn't have the codec used by the other five nines of the userbase [20:19:03] <ron_> I have no idea if the fallback without it is actually sane though [20:19:31] <pcgod> there is no fallback, the fallback codec is celt 0.7.x :) [20:19:32] <ron_> yes. we know about that, but there are Some Issues [20:19:52] <DireFog> without CELT, you sit on a small island, population you, and talk to yourself :-P [20:20:04] <ron_> yeah, by fallback I meant "silence and or a useful error message" :/ [20:20:25] <ron_> and With CELT you may have a remote crasher on your hands. [20:20:33] <ron_> choose your preferred problem ... ... [20:20:55] <DireFog> at worst it's an app crasher, since it's running purely in userspace [20:21:07] <DireFog> so I'll take that over not being able to talk to anyone [20:21:15] <ron_> pcgod: yeah, that'd the bit I'm not certain about. it could just be sending uninitialised junk buffers [20:22:06] <ron_> no, at worst it's you being pwned and then priv escalation to root ... [20:22:22] <DireFog> show me the exploit [20:22:36] <ron_> show me there isn't one? [20:22:59] <DireFog> right now, you're pushing out a completely broken package that makes the Debian project vulnerable to licensing-related lawsuits until the RFC is out [20:23:23] <ron_> sigh [20:23:41] <ron_> if you want to talk about this sensibly, I'm happy to do so [20:23:42] <DireFog> so it's one of removing the package entirely out of paranoia, or removing it until OPUS support is finalised and enough people are using it to make the whole thing worthwhile again [20:23:55] <ron_> if you want to handwave in a panic, that isn't going to help anything or any one [20:24:17] <DireFog> but having a Debian Unstable Voice Messenger that fries my ears everytime someone starts talking is pretty darn useless. ... [20:24:44] <DireFog> removing CELT support is the panicky handwaving in this case, since the thing has been around quite some time, and there are *no* known vulns [20:24:58] <ron_> because yes, the alternative is I could remove it completely. but I'm hoping we can do Something Better still. there's not a lot of time for that to happen though. so foaming is just wasting it [20:25:23] <DireFog> what's the useful ting to do in your opinion? [20:25:26] <DireFog> thing* ... [20:26:01] <DireFog> right now, you're effectively publishing an incompatoible fork of the project [20:26:03] <ron_> provide a fallback to speex would have been our surest baseline ... [20:26:25] <ron_> but that's been removed now, and apparently needs manual tweaking to make happen [20:26:54] <DireFog> you might as well remove the "low-latency, high quality" part from the package description then [20:27:20] <ron_> celt was always an experiment. that experiment is over. [20:27:37] <ron_> yes, the timing is terrible, but move to opus and all will be fine again [20:27:50] <ron_> it's not like that's really going to take all that long [20:28:08] <DireFog> a *lot* of people won't be using that at least until 1.2.4 has been out for quite some time [20:28:13] <DireFog> hell [20:28:19] <DireFog> many are still on 1.2.2 for some reason [20:28:33] <ron_> *nobody* is maintaining celt anymore. [20:28:35] <DireFog> so communication with any of those will be impossible [20:29:14] <ron_> and if it's impossible, that will just give them incentive to move to a working version [20:29:47] <DireFog> OK, so, *purely IMO* remove the entire package or rebrand it, since it's worthless without CELT and having it around under the official name will do nothing but hurt the project's reputation. [20:30:07] <ron_> right now, you have interop hell, because you're spread over half a dozen mutually incompatible codecs [20:30:14] <DireFog> what? [20:30:43] <DireFog> AFAIK there are two supported versions that normally come with the program ... [20:31:28] <DireFog> those are well-defined in the protocol, and support autonegotiation (given a recent enough server) ... [21:35:14] <ron_> DireFog: anyhow, you've maybe got a couple of weeks to come up with some patches to improve things. but shipping an unsupported codec in the distro for 2+ years, that its upstream thinks has unfixed problems, and has no intention of putting energy in to fix - isn't high on the list of Good Answers [21:35:39] <DireFog> then rebrand the thing [21:35:55] <DireFog> you can't ship anything with opus before the RFC anyway [21:35:59] <ron_> you can do what you please and balance whatever risks you like on your own systems. but that doesn't give you the right to make that decision for others. [21:36:02] <DireFog> so plenty of time for that [21:36:25] <ron_> pfft. if all you care about is branding, you're wasting my time with wank anyway [21:36:35] <DireFog> but it's IMO unfair to the upstream project to just start floating down a massively broken version [21:36:38] <ron_> the IETF telecon is thursday ... [21:36:49] <ron_> *this* thursday [21:36:51] <DireFog> and the software itself isn't useful in its current state either [21:37:06] <ron_> so send patches to make it useful instead of worrying about branding [21:37:39] <DireFog> I don't really have stakes in Mumble anymore, and TBH I'm not eager to discuss this anyway, since it defies description. [21:38:11] <ron_> and maybe wake slicer from the dead to help sort this shit out. I didn't *ask* to be put in this position. I'm just trying to help you as best I can because I like slicer ... [21:38:26] <DireFog> you are damaging the project's name, it's as simple as that. You're of course free to do that, but it's unfair, and it's going to make a few people mad, while being of no use to anyone. [21:38:51] <ron_> you dug the hole you're in today. not me. [21:39:09] <ron_> it's not like this hasn't been on the horizon for say 3 years now ... [21:39:23] <ron_> "you" [21:39:57] <DireFog> as I said [21:40:11] <pcgod> and we have at least another 5 years until we're able to drop celt 0.7.x because that's the only codec supported by the ubuntu version .. [21:40:17] <DireFog> you're free to do whatever you want, but you're shipping broken stuff. [21:40:35] <DireFog> and that *will* produce fallout [21:40:43] <ron_> ubuntu people can still install backports [21:40:45] <DireFog> and that'll hit *you* [21:40:59] <DireFog> I'm fine with you having fun with that too [21:42:43] <ron_> the only sane direction out of this is forward. you have a version with opus enabled to test now. if you can make that work ok, then great [21:43:18] <ron_> if nobody cares about that, there's still plenty of time to decide to drop if for wheezy if that's what you'd really prefer [21:43:33] <ron_> s/drop if/drop it/ [21:45:28] <DireFog> I'll put it in plain terms. Your idea of "moving forward" means not being able to talk to anyone. If you want to do that, fine with me. What that makes me think of you both professionally and personally should be sufficiently clear by now. That's all I have to say. Have a nice life. [21:46:30] <ron_> you don't pay my bills. what you think of me is utterly irrelevant. and I have a very nice life, thank you :) [21:46:51] <ron_> either you send patches and help. or you're just a whiner on IRC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [email protected] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [email protected]
