Folks, it seems to me that by now we are turning around in cycles rehashing arguments that are important in general (can LaTeX have security problems, yes or no?; how does one do software development ...) but not with respect to the problem at hand which still is (to me at least) the following two things:
1) determine whether or not the fundamental believes of the LaTeX Mafia comply with the those of the Debian people 2) if so to draft a new LPPL license that reflects both believes, i.e., is DSFG-complient (as well as being understood to be DSFG-complient) while at the same time allowing the majority of the people in the LaTeX world to work as they feel appropriate. If (1) is a no-go we don't have to attempt (2) and I for my part have no intention to. But if (1) is possible, and it seems that this is the case, then please stop arguing on the level File name requirements is something that can be circumented so remove it. We have explained over and over again, that despite that clearly true observation we think that it gives a good way to evolve the LaTeX language while allowing to have other modifications (including the sidestepping) happening outside of what LaTeX users consider conformant LaTeX. For a last time: the argument we have is that a fork on the level of a LaTeX package (not on the level of the LaTeX kernel) --- and that is the majority of the "forks" that are happening --- is something that through LPPL simply enlarges the LaTeX language and thus keeps an univerally conformant LaTeX that then embraces the fork (if so desired by its author) making it a bigger conformant LaTeX, while at the same time a fork at the kernel level using the general file-name mapping feature allows a) to do anything you like (in an easy manner, no cascading problem) while b) it is not threatening any conformant LaTeX as it can live side by side. So for us this combines the best of both approaches. So to come back to (1): Axiom: after all discussions the LaTeX Mafia, the LaTeX users that spoke on this list, and the Debian users that mailed me privately, still believe that the requirement for renaming files LaTeX source files when doing modification for distribution is essential and helpful. What i learned from the discussion is that the license should restrict this to what we actually need (eg not makefiles, tar balls, etc). Starting with this axiom I get: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) I think as the FSF's comments on the latex situation exemplify, the question ends up being a matter of "how much of a pain is it". Since latex apparently has a global file-mapping feature (something not previously noted on the discussion on debian-legal, AFAICT) the problem is not actually hugely severe--and easily worked around, as other threads have indicated. From: Jeff Licquia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> However, as it turns out, there is a process where you can limit filename changes and provide "macro substitution" at runtime on filenames, so that (for example) "article-foo" can be called when "article" is referenced in a document. This reduces the problem back down to the level of changing C source file names; it's an annoyance to have to write the redefinitions, but nothing more. This also requires changing the name of the "binary", but that's OK too. So, it's my understanding that this is DFSG-free. The catch that I see is from Walter's recent post: I just want to make sure that we don't allow a license that can only be applied to LaTeX. When Thomas Bushnell writes: [the above] it seems like Thomas thinks that the LPPL is OK for LaTeX, but probably not for anything else. That troubles me. Well, if it would be OK for LaTeX or related software, like Omega, TeX, pdftex, etc, ie for macroprocessors that have the ability to support a global file-name mapping feature then it would be useable not only for LaTeX "core" but for several megabytes of code written --- i don't know how big CTAN is these days but it is distributed as compressed files on three CDs. I can understand if Debian people would judge such a license as DFSG-complient only if the renaming requirement is not "too painful". As LPPL is currently drafted to be usable with any program that would mean to either - explicitly limit a new draft to software for macroproessors which have the ability needed to make the requirement file renaming painless (ie no cascading) - or to explicitly put the right kind of statement into the license that makes it only applicable to programs which have that feature The latter might be difficult (finding a precise definition, not just "needs to be painless:), I don't know. The former would bring Walter's argument back up, but I would think that (a) there is nothing anywhere in DSFG that prohibits licenses to be applicable only to certain domains (b) the domain is large: it is not the latex kernel as distributed by the LaTeX Project team but it is potentially all software written for and around TeX and related programs which means software for several million users. So to sumarize: To go forward I propose A) I would like you to come to a conclusion on (1) assuming the above Axiom B) if you do and the outcome is not a flat no, but at least a grunted yes (or if you like "its stupid and pointless but within the limits"), then I'm happy to get back to the early posts by Jeff and take together with him and anybody else interested the license completely apart to make its wording and statements reflect what is intended without needing long explanations of intend for the reader (as it is currently the case) and remove or rephrase those parts that are completely wrong or unnecessary. C) if the conclusion on (1) is a flat no, then I fear I have to suggest to you to remove LaTeX from Debian, which I think many (me included) would think would be a pitty. frank -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]