WARNING: Long post (I thought I should include all original references!). On Wednesday 25 December 2002 05:59 am, Colin Watson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 24, 2002 at 11:06:21PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: > > Help or info on any of these issues would be greatly appreciated. I > > posted most of this on linux.debian.user on USEnet, but there were no > > responses. > > Sorry for the confusion, but linux.debian.user is mostly just a one-way > gateway from the debian-user mailing list, so posting there isn't > usually of much help.
I see (said the blind man as he walked into the wall). Thanks. > > I can't help but wonder, since Debian is so easy to upgrade, and most > > Debian users don't do re-installs, if the installer has been > > overlooked or only paid minimal attention. > > This is a comment that's often made, yes (and one that we hope to turn a > little more in our favour with the next-generation installer by making > it behave more like the rest of the distribution rather than the weird > thing it's always been up to now). > > I do know that the Debian installer is at least minimally functional. :) > I use it from time to time at work. I'm not sure if it's minimally functional or minimally dysfunctional. ;) I don't know what the exact goal of Debian is -- whether it's to provide a "geek-only" distro, or just to provide a solid distro, or to provide a distro that is solid and that people will want to use. I do feel strongly that if Debian is intended to be more than a "geek" based distro, the installer is the first thing that has to be fixed. I used to program in assembler on an Apple //e, where I had to write my own routines to handle carry bits and to handle any numbers bigger than 255. I've been running a Linux based network (w/ one or more Win2k boxes) for over a year. I've been working with computers solidly since I learned basic on a DEC PDP in high school in the late 1970's. In short, I am not a compute newbie, but the installer was enough to get me to the point of seeing Debian as an "insider's club" where the users basically were patting each other on the back for being Linux-aware enough to make it through the initiation ritual and show they were somehow smarter than everyone else. I know this is not true, and I'm not trying to blame anyone (least of all Colin, who gave me this very helpful reply), but I'm stating the facts. I don't know if this has been brought up before, but often a community does not see how it is perceived on the outside and, this perception, imho, is real and is probably why Debian is not more widely used. On another note -- I think people designing any new Debian installer could learn a lot from Knoppix (which is Debian based) -- especially the hardware detection. While Knoppix is CD based, there is a script that easily copies it over to a hard drive and makes it easily bootable. > > 1) Not once was I able to do a complete install. Even when I was ONLY > > installing the base system, I always got messages that not all packages > > could be installed. > > Somewhere in the scrollback you should have detailed error messages from > the packages in question, and if you can find those and post them > exactly it may help. I'm pretty sure that the packages in the stable > base system aren't that badly broken for everyone, and this kind of > thing is likely to be independent of your system ... I'll look next time I try an install. I had heard so much from people boasting about how easy it was to install packages on Debian, I was, honestly, shocked that packages would not install. > > 2) When I used the CDs, if the install asked for Disc 1 and I > > accidently put in Disc 2 and received the error message (or the insert > > disk message again), and put in the correct Disc, the install program > > continued asking for the right disc in an endless loop -- in other > > words, if, after asking once for a disc, it didn't find the right > > disc, it was unable to find it anytime afterward (is it possible an > > error flag was set in the loop and not cleared when the install > > program checked again?). > > Sounds like grounds for a bug report on boot-floppies. I was waiting to decide that until I got some kind of feedback. To be honest, I wasn't even going to bother filing a bug report (I've found they can be a pain in the rear to file with some developers if you're not as familar with the software as the developer handling the bug report). > > 3) When I installed using the rescue and root floppies, it still required > > the 1st CD (the website implies if you start with floppies the entire > > install is network based -- if this is wrong, it needs to be clarified). > > Is it possible to install w/ the floppies and NO CD and do a complete > > network install? > > It was the last time I did it - in what context was it asking for the > CD? It could be that it's looking for kernel modules on extra floppies > (yes, the floppy-based install currently requires you to feed in quite a > lot of disks). With someone's help (forgot who -- another reply to my original post), I found out it's because I did not have the driver floppy. While the install manual does point this out, I have to point out that when one clicks on the Install Debian link on the homepage, the page that comes up for a network install is not very clear. It implied all I needed was the rescue floppy and the root file system floppy. To be blunt (and speaking as a former teacher who worked with learning disabled students and therefore had to learn a lot about how people learn), the documention on this (and some other install matters) needs to be re-written. People who are installing are often new to Debian and this is the first impression they make of the distro. If it is not clear, and not easy to follow (and a Debian install is NOTHING in the way of easy -- I found it easier to install Sorcerer, which is source based than it was to install Debian), then people won't bother. In this case, there should be a list (and definately one that's easy to find) that newbies can see that specifically states what floppies one will need to do a network based distro. Instead there's the page one can click on with all the floppies available. It gets confusing sorting through all of them. Just a simple list on the first page dealing with a network or floppy install that tells a user, "You need these floppies to do a network install" would be a HUGE help. > > 5) Not once could I get the X server up and running -- it always said > > there was a problem with a port not being available > > Again, can you give the exact error message? This doesn't ring a bell, > but the text might. Don't remember exactly at this point. Something to do with a tcp port not being open. > > 7) I added Demudi as a debs source. According to the documention, Demudi > > includes Cinelerra as a package. I think (but don't remember for sure) > > that one time I was able to install Cinelerra, but all the other times, > > even after I hand edited the debs file (and did apt-get update) to > > include Demudi as a source, whenever I did apt-get cinelerra, I got a > > "not available" error message. How do I fix this? > > It may not actually be called 'cinerella'. Try using 'apt-cache search' > (or show what you have in /etc/apt/sources.list and I'll go and have a > look). I'll try that -- but I could swear I managed to install it once. > Cheers, Thanks for a clear and helpful post with a lot of information. It was very helpful. I hope some of the Debian maintainers are reading this thread, since some of the points I've made would seem (im-not-so-ho) critical in doing something to make the install a little easier than alligator wrestling. Thanks for the help! Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
