On Thu, 10 May 2007 18:51:20 +0200 Joe Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Celejar wrote: > [snip] > > Can I tell offending *truths* or expres offending opinions about > > others? Can I say "I hate Jews / Arabs / Asians / blacks / homosexuals > > and I think that they should be stripped of their civil rights and > > incarcerated"? Again, even if one believes that it's right to prohibit > > such things (and I don't concede the point) it's incorrect to call that > > freedom. > > > I have that right too. As I said, I don't know much about the Netherland's law. I do know that in much of Europe, free speech protecions are much weaker. > > How is selling Nazi memorabilia and expressing fondness for them > > telling lies about them? Fallaci had trouble for writing thing like > > "the sons of Allah breed like rats". Was she accused of falsehood, or > > of mere offensiveness? > > > > And, we Dutch can complain all we want about the Nazi's and trade in the > memorabilia, although there isn't a lot of demand for it. Good on both counts (I assume you mean something like 'praise the Nazis')! > >> Also, no Western-German or unified German government after WWII has ever > >> carried people to offshore islands, denying any rights for legal counsel > >> or legal defence. As said above, government, police, military have less > >> powers in Germany to take freedom away from people. > >> > >>> As I said, I don't know > >>> much about the Netherlands' legal climate, but I'm surprised to hear > >>> that it's a much freer country. I have heard that they're more tolerant > >>> WRT moral issues, such as euthanasia, drugs and prostitution. Is that > >>> what you mean? What about economic freedom? One way or another, I'm > >>> genuinely curious to see a comparison of the two countries' respective > >>> freedoms. > >> What do you mean by economic freedom? If you are talking about the > >> ability of companies to sack people in order to save their salary, then > >> the US is indeed more liberal. > > > > Yes, the ability to hire and fire at will is called freedom of > > contract. Why should the government tell consenting adults what sorts > > of economic arrangements they can make among themselves :). And once > > again, even if you believe that government should regulate such things > > (and I do agree with some regulation of economic activity), it's still > > a curtailment of freedom. > > I agree. We have that right. > >> If you are talking about the freedom to copy a CD you bought to a > >> cassette in order to play it on your 10 year old car's stereo that won't > >> play CDs, than Germany has more freedom. Many of the EULA clauses > >> limiting your rights are void in Germany. (Of course that implies that > >> companies have less freedom to hassle their customers). > >> > >> If you are talking about the possibility of using 'one-click' buttons on > >> your web site without fear of patent infringement, then Europe has more > >> freedom. > > > > You have completely failed to show that Germany is freer than the US. > > You have shown that some things are freer there, but many are freer > > here. You just insist on denying that any of our freedoms are really > > freedoms. > > I say Germany is less free than The Netherlands. I can do things like > post on the internet how one can download libdvdcss2 so they can play > CDs. If I lived in Germany I would be breaking the law by doing that, > because in Germany that is considered assisting people in breaking the > law, and that is against the law. > > You, being in the US are not allowed to install it. So much for freedom > with your media. a) I don't consider this a major restriction on my freedom (the issue is probably less important than the freedom to bear arms) and b) one should view the prohibition as akin to restrictions on firearms. Just as they usually have legitimate uses, but the government restricts or prohibits their availability to protect other's rights from being abused, so too the government can restrict my freedom to distribute a tool that, while it has legitimate uses, is also widely used to infringe on other's rights. I'm not saying I agree with the law here, and I certainly agree that it is still undeniably a restriction on my freedom; I'm just saying that it's not such a big deal, and that it can be justified. > Joe Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
