On Jun 23, 2009, at 10:02 PM, 明覺 wrote:
2009/6/23 Jeff Soules <sou...@gmail.com>:
I open this thread as a programmer, you can ignore my questions
about
programming in the future, but you should not ignore my questions
as a
debian user.
Right now you are showing that you're a person who asks for advice,
but does not listen to the response. People value their time and
will
not take the time to respond to someone like this, whether you're
speaking as a programmer, a Debian user, an artist, or a fisherman.
Don't waste people's time. Ever.
yes i'm asking for advice, and I'm very happy to get so many good
advices, and I'm trying to form a solution to include all the good
advices, I'm not wasting other's time, we are just discussing and
trying to figure out the best way.
No, we're not figuring out the best way. All of US are telling you
that you're off your rocker and on a fool's quest. You're saying,
"But you're wrong and I'm right."
You talk about how different languages are just "different ways to do
the same thing." Well... okay... but you're writing to this list in
English. From your sig and your name you're obviously a native
Chinese speaker. Aren't English and Chinese just "different ways to
say the same thing?" If you don't understand them both well, you
might think so. But some things are much easier to do in one
language
versus the other. "飄飄何所似， 天地一沙鷗" -- in English, is it
'just the same
thing?' It's not that Chinese is just "better," there are plenty of
things that are more natural in English than in Chinese. Just the
same, if all you see in Perl is wrappers around C functions--if you
think "none of them bring new concepts [or clarity or simplicity] to
C/C++" -- then you don't understand Perl. And you need to. Without
lots of different ways of thinking about problems, you're like a frog
in a well, saying "look how small the sky is!"
A very good comparison -- human languages and programming languages.
Then why we must have an official world language - English? What's the
official language in the programming world? If you say you do not need
an official programming language, then you are saying "we do not need
English to be the world official language", I believe no one will
agree with you; if you say every programmer should learn many
languages, then you are saying "everyone should learn English,
Chinese, French....", oh, I believe everyone will hate you so much, I
guess you are also a chinese, you should know how suffering we chinese
have to learn English.
Comparisons hold true on some levels, but few hold true on every
level. In this case, you're taking one argument and stretching it
beyond any boundary of logic or common sense. Yeah, I could go into
it more, but why? You'll just say, "But I'm right and you're not."
I value every good concept in every language,
No you don't. If you did, you'd understand the main message you've
been told dozens of times.
but please add that good
concept to my familiar language, not force me to learn a new one;
Nobody's forcing you to learn a darn thing. You don't have to do
nothing -- except pay taxes and die (and I honestly don't know how
taxes work in your country). You make it sound like a chore to learn
a new language. For a true programmer it isn't. Learning a new
language, for a real and true programmer, is and adventure. It's a
chance to approach all problems from yet another perspective. I
learned most languages in a few hours or days. When I first started
looking at OOP, it took me a while, but once I got it, working with
other OOP based languages was a snap. If you feel like you're being
forced to learn languages, then you're in the wrong field.
But after reading that line, I wonder....
Is all this because you have trouble with some languages -- it looks
like you're essentially trying to go through all this so you don't
have to learn languages you don't want to learn.
I've never seen someone work so hard due to fear and sloth.
or,
I can reference another language so that I can improve my language,
but please do not force me to use a new one.
Nobody is forcing you to learn anything. You don't want to learn one,
don't learn it. Quit the job -- but then when you want a new job,
don't be surprised if they ask you why you quit that last one!
Honestly, that you can even talk about being forced to learn a
language, that you even have that as a concept in your brain, says
even more about you. It tells us you don't want to learn something
new. It tells us you don't want to explore. It tells us you see
programming more as a chore than an art or challenge. It also says
that we should have sympathy for whoever hires you as a programmer.
The way computers working
is simple, so there isn't any difficulties to implement a good concept
in one language to another.
Do you have any clue, when you make a statement like that, just how
much it shows everyone that you know almost nothing about
programming? Seriously, and not as a slam against you, you keep
making statements like that and each one just tells us even more about
how little you know and how little you're willing to learn. You're
not just ignorant, you simply refuse to learn.
The problem is, if everyone of us use a different language, we cannot
cooperate, so we must have an official language, and everyone learn
and use it from the start to end.
That is one of the stupidest comments I've heard anyone say or write
in at least a year -- and I know stupid. I lived through the 2009
U.S. Presidential elections (which are included in that one year).
Seriously, it's just plain ignorant and stupid.
I've written bash scripts to work with programs in other languages.
Look at how Perl uses C and C++ libraries and they work together.
I've written programs in Perl that communicate with programs in Java
with no trouble.
You make it sound like it's such a barrier to have different
languages, but it's not.
This statement is as stupid as saying, "We should all learn to play
the same musical instrument so we can all read notes on the same staff
and in the same notation and play in the same range." Honestly, I
don't know whether you're now spinning your wheels and making up
things to try to justify your position or not, but you've crossed a
line somewhere today and gone from making statements that let you
sound somewhat intelligent but inexperienced to making statements that
make you sound like you have just enough intelligence to learn simple
programming tasks, but not enough to see how much you don't know.
I'm perhaps a "junior programmer" myself. I can and have used C and
Pascal. I've taught Java. I'm working on projects with JavaScript
and I use Perl and SQL regularly in my career. I don't know ENOUGH
different ways to do the same thing! I say this because I've
realized
that different languages do different things much more easily than
others, and ultimately it's about getting the job done.
but in my career life, I saw so much overlapping work done because
different languages, I used to be a web programmer, javascript, xslt,
C#, we programmed so many same functions with different languages.
It's painful, cann't you see it? It's beause we are on the wrong way!
Odd. It's painful for you, other programmers don't have an issue with
it. Is it possible programming is not a wise career path for you?
Maybe you should try something different.
Quick storytime: Several years back, I was writing some XML format
converters in Perl. There are wonderful pre-written Perl modules to
parse and output XML. But I wanted to "learn more," so I insisted on
doing it all myself. (Management wasn't watching me too closely.)
It
took me three times as long to write and the code wasn't flexible or
maintainable... and honestly, I didn't learn anything worthwhile, but
I wanted to "learn." Now, whenever I find myself doing this, I look
back at that: do I *really* want to spend my time inventing inferior
ways to parse XML? Is it so interesting to write string parsers?
What am I learning? How much better it is just to learn the common
tools! If I want to learn, I'm better off reading someone else's
great code than writing my own bad code. It's not the "waste of time
those scripts languages bring to us programmers" -- they exist to
SAVE
time. If you doubt it, challenge a perl programmer to a race
sometime. There are problems for which it would be faster to *learn
perl well enough to write a perl solution* than to write the solution
in C.
I want to integrate perl into C/C++.
Remember what I said above? This gets even more outlandish than your
other statements -- and see what I said about how they make you look
as you make each new one.
You keep coming back to this argument that "I hope one day I will be
able to take full control of my system, and modify [it] as i like."
An admirable goal -- but what does it actually *mean*? What are you
going to do with this system? You're going to give up most of the
functionality of a good Linux distro so you can... mess around with
the way your personal hardware handles filesystem journaling, or
memory allocation, or something? That's really the most interesting
problem you can think of solving with computers?
Yes, I myself won't be able to do all the work, but if there are many
people agree with me, and we work together to realize an only one
programming language system, that will be a bright future of our free
software world.
Nobody agrees with you. At least nobody with any programming talent
and experience.
You really need to rethink your priorities. A mature person would
accept that when a solution has been endorsed by thousands of people
over decades, there might be something worthwhile to it, even if it
is
unfamiliar at first. The majority isn't always right, but their
ideas
are at least worth considering.
no, I don't consider the number of people and the length of time a
situation exists, I just consider whether it's the right way to do
things.
And it's not, but your ego is so strong and your need to appear and
feel right is so strong that you are incapable of backing down and
realizing when you've goofed or when you don't understand something.
thank you for the advice!
Why? You don't want it, you won't listen. You just tell all of us
we're wrong and you're right, yet you're the one without a job, you're
the one willing to piss off your bosses in programming jobs.
Hal
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