On Tue, September 11, 2012 7:36 am, lee wrote: > "Weaver" <wea...@riseup.net> writes: > >> On Mon, September 10, 2012 5:10 am, lee wrote: >>> "Weaver" <wea...@riseup.net> writes: >>> >>>> On Sun, September 9, 2012 5:18 am, lee wrote: >>>>> "Weaver" <wea...@riseup.net> writes: >>>>> >>>>>> But we are talking about Debian. >>>>>> Specifically partitioning/file system decision making during >>>>>> install. >>>>> >>>>> When else would you make such a decision if not before starting the >>>>> installation? You can't install software without a place to put it. >>>> >>>> You are quoting out of context. >>> >>> No, I'm not, you didn't get my point. >> >> I get the point. It's just not an accurate or germane one...because you >> quoted out of context. > > You still didn't get the point. > >>>> What I am saying there needs advisory material placed into the >>>> installation process so that newbies can make INFORMED decisions and >>> >>> People aren't going to spend the time it would take them to learn >>> everything they need to make informed decisions about the options the >>> installer gives them, no matter how much documentation you put into it. >> >> And here you do it again. >> >> This is one small page, with information pertaining to partitioning and >> file-systems. There is no need to put documentation into the installer >> pertaining to every subject it addresses. >> There simply isn't a need that I can see. >> >> Why do you distort the direction of the discussion to that degree? > > I'm not distorting anything, lol. You come along and pick up a tiny > little detail (partitioning) involved in the process of installing > Debian on a computer, and you vote for putting some information into the > installer to educate the totally clueless user about partitioning. My > point --- which you don't get --- besides others is that it takes a lot > more education than that to turn the totally clueless user into someone > who understands and knows what they are doing. You might agree to that > since you seem to have the assumption that once the clueless user has > installed Debian, they would venture to explore it in more detail and to > educate themselves and that they would eventually become someone who > understands and knows what they are doing. Some people might actually do > that and most people probably won't.
There you go again! I wouldn't classify partitioning as a 'tiny little detail.' Neither would the average end user. Along with the file system, it's the basis of any system. Try installing without it and you'll see what I mean. And I don't think its helpful to classify the average end user as a 'totally clueless user'. They haven't had the opportunity, until after they have installed, of becoming anything else. Most people won't achieve any level of literacy if they are not taught how to read first, to employ a parallel. First people have to be able to install a system before they become familiar with it. Without the speed bumps getting removed, we have a very small potential future pool of users, advocates, doc writers, maintainers and developers. > > Have you thought about all the things you would have to explain to the > clueless user to enable them to decide what partitioning they want? > Partitioning involves RAID and lvm, No it doesn't! Those are options that they can look at further down the line when they are more familiar with the territory. it involves file systems I have already covered this also. and what > the computer is going to be used for; That is something that can be left to apt/aptitude/synaptic once the installation is over and they have had some time to choose what they want. That's free software. it involves installing a boot > loader somewhere, That is something that you can just press 'enter' to. Grub-pc installation is automagic. and it might involve other operating systems and/or > virtual machines that are or will be installed on the same computer. It > involves considering the kind of available storage devices since you > might want to use an SSD for a different purpose than your conventional > hard disk, and you might want to put some things on the faster disks you > have rather than on the slower ones and deciding where to put your swap > partitions. It involves considering reliability issues and backup > strategies --- and probably a lot more I'm too lazy to think of. And > what if something doesn't work? We appear to have wandered completely away from newbie territory, Doctor Livingstone! > > If you think you can explain all that to the clueless user in 10 or 20 > lines of 80cpl text you can put into the installer with a chance of the > clueless user reading them, I'd like to see what you'd put in. Just > don't dumbfound the user by putting some nonsense and unhelpful > blah-blah into it that doesn't even touch the point like the so-called > "documentation" does that you get with windoze. I think we can all agree that none of this is required in this context. > > Keep in mind that partitioning isn't the only part of the installation > process. Maybe you now understand why I'm suggesting that deciding about > the partitioning is something to be done /before/ the installation > rather than something to be decided by a clueless user who's stuck > without a working computer somewhere in the installation process. If > that user has to ask "What is partitioning?", they are at the wrong > place. Not if the information is there. > >>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an >>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and >>> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the >>> installer? I've never needed more than the one I've got. I have needed an internet connection. >> >> Because that is an issue that somebody with a basic mastery over their >> system and sufficient experience with Debian is capable of chasing down >> themselves. Yes, but to get to that stage, they will have had to get beyond the partitioning stage. > > They can do that by making sure they have a working computer at > hand. That shouldn't be needed. > >> This discussion is centred round the issue a newbie would >> experience when confronted by the partitioning stage of the installer. > > You are on the wrong approach if you want to limit the perspective to > only one issue. Besides, you also need to consider that not only > clueless users install Debian. If any gurus happen along through the basic install, they can press 'enter' there also. > >>> Just boot from the installation media and be presented with a working >>> system and an installer, allowing you to switch between them. >>> >>> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they >>> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions >>> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from >>> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be. >> >> That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with >> Debian either. >> The whole exercise is a requirement to advise. >> Not remove choice or the power of personal decision making over even a >> newbie's system. An advisory, of this nature, as I have already said, >> would be the first step that supplies that revelatory "Ah Hah!" moment >> that encourages exploration. Not one that inhibits access to knowledge. > > Well, that is your imagination of users educating themselves about how > their computer and the software works. Why don't you want to give such > users a working system that, besides other advantages, allows them to > educate themselves as thoroughly as they see fit while or even before > they install Debian on their computers? Why don't you want to give users > who don't want to educate themselves the option to simply press a button > and as a result have Debian installed on their computers so that they > can do whatever they want? Because I believe that the best way to climb a ladder is at the first step. After that, it's up to the individual user to decide as to whether they are high enough or not. Most (90%) just want a working system, but how many potential developers are put off by an initial first step? Why are other Debian-based distributions so obsessed with the installer? > > You can advocate dumbfounding users by putting a few lines of text into > the installer. Ummmm, no, I haven't advocated that anywhere. The whole concept behind those 'few lines of text' is to remove the 'dumbfounding' factor. I hate dumbfounding users like that, and that some users > want to be dumbfounded doesn't mean that I have to do or to propose > it. What you propose is contradictory to what you seem to want, which is > something you probably haven't realised yet. I'm telling you that there > is another option which I think is much better, and you want to totally > ignore it and accuse me of distorting things (lmao). > > So why did you bring this topic up for discussion when you don't want to > discuss it? You seem to have already decided what you want, and nobody > prevents you from doing it. Don't expect me or someone else to tell you > that you should do it. I'm telling you that you shouldn't. I would go along with anything you said if it was based on something other than confused, emotive rhetoric to the point that I could understand it. All I am advocating is a small advisory page prior to the partitioning section of the installer. You are advocating - everything! Regards, Weaver -- "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." -- Thomas Paine -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/47b26bac13df30626bf6d8cf63d6af84.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net
