Le 24.01.2013 22:01, Richard Owlett a écrit :
Chris Bannister wrote:
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 09:54:17AM +0000, Darac Marjal wrote:
chime in with a reminder that dselect is considered discouraged
these
days. It's spiritual successor (a TUI interface to apt) is now
aptitude.
That depends on who you ask. For newbies, I certainly wouldn't
recommend
dselect, but if they wanted to use it I certainly wouldn't
discourage
them from doing so. In fact, if they can get their head around
dselect,
then anything else that is thrown at them will probably seem like a
piece of cake.
As to the overall Linux market there are at least two distinct
classes of "newbies".
There is the class who is targeted by the Canonical (cf Microsoft)
mentality - Big Brother knows best.
There is class who wants the best from his system.
"BEST" is not a simple one dimensional parameter.
When I was in school a strong emphasis was placed on "first
principles".
I think Debian could benefit from that outlook.
I.E. Use the intuitive/user friendly/simple/simplistic interface(s)
when appropriate.
But know hat goes on "under the hood".
I'll follow the later route. I started my transition from Windows to
Linux over two years ago. I could have had a system up in a day. But
I
don't see how it would have been significantly better/???? than
(insert your least favorite OS implementation here).
I'll continue to pursue the "back to basics" route.
I do not wish to discourage pointing newbies to most modern tools.
BUT please point them to the fundamentals.
I could not agree more. It sounds like I am following the same road
that you, starting more or less at the same time: 2 years ago, or maybe
3, I fully switched to Debian, using windows only for few games
(previously, I had debian installed while a year, but was never using
it, lacks of games...), from time to time (but learning and programming
are now my favorite games, so I spend more time on Debian).
Now, despite the fact I'm still a newbie, I am trying to go on gentoo's
road, and never learn about dselect. Just by taking a quick look, I can
say that it have interesting options aptitude lacks.
It is still a graphical software (ok, a semi-graphical one, like
aptitude) which is important for me, because apt-get does not allow you
to learn as easily why your packages are installed and their description
in the same time, but in 2 seconds, I noticed it gave some options
aptitude never gave me: choosing to install from cdrom, cdrom-set, nfs,
.... sounds very powerful!
I think I'll try it deeper now.
But I do not think there are many kinds of newbies. A newbie is someone
which is trying to learn, and, in my opinion, it is not an insult at all
(some people on MMO games think it is). It is a "compliment" (not sure
about word) since I think people who want to learn are very valuable
guys. Regularly more than some self-proclaimed experts (well... lamers).
But maybe I am keeping too much memories from the time where I was
learning to crack softwares: in that time, every tutorial was starting
with some terminology: lamer, newbie, cracker, hacker, black/white hat
were explained before the first technical lessons. That knowledge of
terminology should be, in my opinion, teach in regular classes too. It
would avoid or restrain medias to say that music counterfeiters (damn,
that word is ugly) are hackers.
There are simply newbies and users. Users do not mind to learn or not,
they want to use, and only use. They will use anti-viruses to remove
their responsibilities of stupid acts, they will ask to professional to
maintain their car, they'll ask to insurances to change their window's
glasses, etc. When newbies will do the task themselves, and learn from
their failures.
Of course, we are all users in a domain or another, because being a
newbie costs time, and money. But when you become a tinkerer, you'll
just take that time and money back :)
About aptitude... the ncurse version is correct. Slow, but correct
(when you have a break somewhere, every move take ages! I guess it
checks broken dependencies every time you move.). Or at least, was,
before multi-arch.
Since multi-arch, everything is 2 times slower: upgrades (double data
to download), browsing (double lines to browse), fixing broken
dependencies... and debtags uses still lacks features (currently, AFAIK,
we can only browse tags by the tree, not specify we refuse some tags.
Imagine I refuse to install all KDE stuff - which is true - I can not
say to aptitude to avoid showing packages with KDE debtag).
I do not speak about the GTK version. It simply have nothing related to
ncurse version, event shortcuts differs (a real problem, since I think
ncurse aptitude users like it for them).
So, if dselect can be faster, I think I might use it now, instead of
aptitude.
Note: I did not read the info page of aptitude. I do not like info at
all: this is a software which pretends to help you, but you have to
learn how it works before being able to use it. And, it's info manual is
just useless.
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