On 25/11/14 00:25, Jerry Stuckle wrote: > On 11/24/2014 2:56 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: <snip> >>> Yes, and while the Linux community continues, Debian will lose a >>> lot of dedicated users due to this decision. Possibly another >>> fork, or possibly another distro. But Debian will lose users. >> >> 1. At best that's pure speculation. With all due respect to Gypsy >> Rose Lee (who is really just a naughty boy), some of us "engineer >> types" place little stock in soothsaying. >> > > It is more than speculation. Read the posts here - some people > (including me) are already looking for alternatives. And so are many > companies I know of who have looked at jessie.
1. Like most things, that's relative. In this instance to the number of readers and "users":- https://lwn.net/Articles/620441/ and, see my comments further down about "churn" (if I was overly tired and emotional I might write "they're your ball, you know where your home is?", "empty promises", and, "what's second prize?". But I'm not 'that' tired and emotional). 2. Fore-telling the future, especially when the basis for future extrapolation is *not* based on *any* (supplied and confirm-able) facts - is assumption (not presumption - which generally, pre-supposes 'some' evidence, of which you provide none (which doesn't preclude the possibility you will at a later stage). "Presumption" is distinct from "assumptions". (not to imply you are cognitively impaired, just in awareness that this is not a 1:1 communication) 3. "companies" that you 'know '"have looked at Jessie" (which is not yet a Stable release) is like "secret attorneys" - not demonstrable facts and of dubious relevance. An unintentional oversight on your part I 'suspect'. I may be alone in the desire to not start jumping at shadows (or hanging monkeys in sailor suits) - that 'may' (based on historical precedence) only lead to burning witches and people that don't look like the tribal patriarch. > >> 2. It's false logic to conclude *only* losses from change (and >> duplicitous to deny that systemd is your only choice) - it >> overlooks the possibility that the additional *choice* of systemd >> will attract more users (and more instances - you do know that >> many "administrators" manage large numbers of instances, right?). >> There is no evidence to show that other distros and projects that >> adopted systemd as the *only* choice lost users - quite the >> reverse. >> > > These are the ones who are abandoning Debian. Citation? "These" is a, um, little vague. > Some of them came to Debian because it was one of the last holdouts. Is that a reference to a term used in a television show about the fictitious "Wild West"? I can only apologise of my ignorance of "popular culture" (long story - I haven't watched "television" in several decades - did I miss something important?). Never-the-less I suspect what you refer[*1] to is what is called "churn". Tyre-kickers, testers, those that don't want to/don't have the time/capacity to learn sufficient skills, those that lack the motivation/capacity to decide for them selves and "go with the flow" (of the noisiest) - as some might say - like dead fish. None of which would be clients of your "business" - though admittedly I'm guessing at your business model and mean no undue disrespect to you as a Veteran Unix Administrator. (it's late, I'm tired, please forgive any clumsy wording and a total lack of editorial review, be assured I've endeavoured to extend the same courtesy). > But they see the way Debian is going also, and don't like it. Objection - remains supposition *until* you supply evidence. I don't doubt you don't "like it" (shades of Fffacefriend and primary school??)But... there are many things I don't like, *I*'ll spare you, and other readers further expansion on them. > They'll probably end up on BSD. Not necessarily a bad thing. BSD (a generic for a diversity of distributions, can use love - providing that those disenfranchised refugees that you refer to:- ;exist ;provide love > >>> >>> Sure, people who only run software in .deb packages won't be hit >>> as hard. >> >> At all. And then only if *they* don't elect to stay with sysv. >> >> But that is definitely not the entire Debian user base. >> > > I never said it was the entire Debian user base. Nor did I say you did. Please don't put words in my mouth. > But even staying with sysv is only a temporary situation. In your "prediction" of *future* events. Which is dependant on "Debian" ceasing to do what Debian has done for more than two decades - overcome difficulties and adapt to change (an instructive guide to coping, and profiting from change, don't you think?) > They see the handwriting on the wall Daniel[*2] or Omar Khayyám? [confused, but still keen to learn] > - whether you agree with it or not. For the record - 'I' don't. On the basis of I've seen no evidence, in spite of extensive research and carefully open-minded view, of any factual support for the proof of soothsaying or prophecy (I was disappointed to discover that Uri Geller was a fraud, but I digress). In light of "assume the best intentions" I invite you to provide evidence to the contrary. Please. > >> Those that deploy customisations in the "Debian Way" should file >> bug reports if those customisations are not supported *if* they >> change init systems. Upgrades have *always* supported >> customisations done the "Debian Way" - and I have every confidence >> they will continue to do so >> > > And exactly what is the "Debian way" to add custom (NOT customized > pre-packaged) software to the system? Please, 'try' and extend the same level of consideration and respect that others extend to you. I don't consider you a moron, or a "Linux newbie" (and that's not a politically correct statement, it's based on previous experience, appreciation of your past contributions to Debian User, and various PHP forums). In light of which I endeavour not to insult your intelligence (or threaten your pride) - the general consensus is rather than hijack a thread:- ; search debian.org (read the documentation, look at the wiki) ; search Debian User ; read the fine documentation ; when the above fails, after consulting the Debian Wiki and "how to ask smart questions" guide, read the posting rules for this list, and post a suitably Subject titled question instead of hijacking threads or employing the Gish Gallop (or follow your own "tough love" advice?) I have no doubt you are capable of the above, though I recognise your "situation" is not mine and may involve impediments I've failed to adequately compensate for. My sincere apologies if that marginalises your complaints (I can be a bit thick - at times, despite "best intentions"). Even if I'm the only person who'd miss your positive contributions to this list - I still be saddened by your departure. > > Jerry > > Sincerely, kind regards [*1] Desktop/Server wars? Linux - mainly Debian "won" the server war. Why do (some USA-ians?) see FOSS as war?? Why are "numbers" so important? Is it a self-validation thing? Is there an authoritative, relevant, citation you can supply for Debian and this "numbers" (over quality?) end-game? So many questions - so little time, and my poor little head is so small. [*2] No B.B., it's (just?) not football. :) -- "The pure and simple truth is that the truth is rarely pure and never simple" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54734947.30...@gmail.com