Hello, On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote: > On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote: > > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I > > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint > > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their > > heads and debating such into the ground. > > We all have our perceptions. > This would appear to be an overly dramatic one. > `posting every thought that comes into their > > heads and debating such into the ground' - really? > If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be > more concise than that.
I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to find; there's just so many of them. If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to feel like an attack on individual posters. I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for. > > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site > > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer. > > Not in the reality I inhabit. > I'm a member of a couple of stack sires, and I have witnessed many a > humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness. Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a better experience both for the question asker and later researchers who come across it. By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts loudest and most often, and that's even before the posts start appearing that are not even about Debian at all. There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists. > There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those > conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate > notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable - > within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all > of 5 seconds. New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a huge impediment to getting their problems solved. People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift through it all. It seems really odd to take the position that the primary venue for user support must be drowned in content that is not about use of Debian, because anyone who isn't interested in that can just filter it away. > > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there > > is too much of here. > > It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not > necessarily everybody's. > Do you see the value in discussion, yet? I get that everyone has different opinions about what this list is for. I think I'm being pretty clear in expressing the opinion that it is for user support, not general debate. It's not a problem when there's a slight amount of debate around the problems and solutions. It is a problem when threads shift entirely away from the use of Debian. Again, I really don't want to have to call out specific recent incidents as I think they're easy to recognise. I'm not saying that I think such conversations shouldn't be had, anywhere, just that the primary place for support shouldn't be the place that they happen, and that I think this could best be achieved by not using a discussion list for it in the first place. So no, I don't see the value of such wide-ranging discussion in the support venue, even having given a fair amount of it over a reasonably long period of time. There is nothing that has convinced me that diverging off into some topic not at all related to use of Debian has value here. I've done it myself, regretted it later, it's usually been a product of frustration and I wish it wasn't tolerated here from me or anyone else. > > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion > > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything > > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue > > for users new and old. > > Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now. This sub-thread asking for suggestions on how to improve the list could have had a very short answer from you if your opinion on that is "nothing, it's all fine". Clearly not everyone considers it to be doing very well. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
