Hi all, I've a pull request[1] to try to improve how the Beam site guides people to these channels. Would someone take a look?
The PR encourages users to use SO and user@. Depending on others' opinion, we can also mention slack. The PR also attempts to improve the bottom links on the website for users looking for Events and/or Support. [1] - https://github.com/apache/beam/pull/9875 On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:28 AM Ismaël Mejía <ieme...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry for late answer. The issue here is that once we have a > communication channel, users expect > answers on it. Python SDK is getting momentum and we need to serve users > where > they are (as mentioned by others above). > > One strong advantage of 'real-time' communication (Slack/IRC) is that it is > better suited for collaboration, and to create community bonds, think for > example of how many people who answered a question you were looking for at > stackoverflow you can remember by their 'name', versus the people with > whom you > have interacted in a short conversation in an IRC-like channel. I mention > this > because this is a way to make users welcomed and many times a first step > towards > contribution (for example the 'would you be willing to add this to the docs > case'). > > StackOverflow is probably the most 'scalable' system because of many > aspects > like being indexed in a better way by search engines helping future users > to > find answers quickly, but it is also not perfect, the reputation system is > basically elitist against casual people answering questions. In any case > there > is value in encouraging moving some answers from Slack to SO, but there is > also > value in improving our own website docs so this should probably be done > case by > case. > > A first approach is probably to document (and recommend) to users that if > they > don't get their questions answered in slack to better ask in SO or the user > mailing list. > > I personally think there is value in getting more people involved in > 'real-time' > communications. Of course this is probably not for everyone, I understand > that > people may not want to do this to avoid being interrupted or for other > reasons, > but this is a trade-off to pay not only to help people but eventually to > grow the community as in the go-lang case Robert mentioned so it is > probably > worth considering. > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:27 AM Robert Burke <rob...@frantil.com> wrote: > > > > For the Go SDK, emailing the dev list or asking on Slack are probably > the best ways to get an answer from me. I'm not in the habit to search for > open Go SDK questions on stack overflow right now, but will chip in if > they're pointed out to me > > > > As Alexey mentions, Slack largely works for quick back and forths with > community members, especially if both folks are awake at the same time. Eg. > I've been handling a few questions there, and helping the user in question > even get a few quick fix PRs in, making the SDK better for everyone. > > On the other hand, I can be more responsive on beam-go because it's low > enough traffic I can be notified of every question/response. I look forward > to when there's enough traffic there I can turn that off. :D > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 4:45 PM Alexey Romanenko <aromanenko....@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Pablo, thank you for raising this question. > >> > >> I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on > Java SDK related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack > is not very effective for this. > >> There are several reasons for that: > >> - People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not > happening all the time, especially, for not evident questions where you > need some time to provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its > role in terms of reaction time. > >> - Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could > be messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes > difficult to follow. > >> - It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link > with already answered question. > >> > >> So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions > but not sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support > thing. IMHO, we need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to > them to choose). Though, the more important thing is to regulalrly keep > track of non answered questions there and do our best to minimise this > number. > >> > >> > >> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver <kcwea...@google.com> wrote: > >> > >> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned > messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the > topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include > https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO. > We should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python > channels, which currently don't have any topic. > >> > >> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib | > kcwea...@google.com > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada <pabl...@google.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> +Ismaël Mejía can you share your impressions from Slack? Do you think > Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there? > >>> > >>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet > users where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising > is that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python > questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer > them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat > rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might > improve the situation. > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett < > whatwouldausti...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open > source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too. Though what it > could be is different from how currently used. There are 173 accounts in > #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick > glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be > pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...) > >>>>> > >>>>> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but > that is from a community standpoint. If people are metrics focused, that > might be harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for > those that have benchmarks to hit. I am willing to dig into Slack's API if > desired, to surface/forward messages as useful. Not sure how all that > would look, open to figure it out. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay <al...@google.com> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for > python questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find > StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference. The > original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list > and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How > are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the > impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact > rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Ahmet > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles <k...@apache.org> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam > Python users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has > a lot of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other > channels the user might try next. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kenn > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw < > rober...@google.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due > to its > >>>>>>>> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users > >>>>>>>> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the > >>>>>>>> resolution is brought back to SO. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri <eh...@google.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has > the advantage of being an informal space. > >>>>>>>> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. > Unlike the others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can > only post comments or answers). > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada < > pabl...@google.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> Hello all, > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> THE SITUATION: > >>>>>>>> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in > Slack are not getting much support, because most of the Beam > Python-knowledgeable people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam > site, we do refer people to Slack for assistance[1]. > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are > enough Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer. > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who > are responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best > to answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall. > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS: > >>>>>>>> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam? > >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list > first > >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first > >>>>>>>> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users > to go to StackOverflow > >>>>>>>> >> - something else? > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's > intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability. > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> WHAT I PROPOSE: > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow > first will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less > intimidating than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as > well - without any guarantees. > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> What do others think? > >>>>>>>> >> -P. > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ > >>>>>>>> >> [2] > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest > >> > >> >