Julian, I think you miss the point of my suggestion.
String is not called ImmutableString. The contract of no immutability is carried by outside tribal knowledge and documentation. It is enforced by not allowing mutation. If you declare a List, but assign an ImmutableList, you are in a similar situation except that the tribal knowledge has to be more forceful because of the normal expectation of List as mutable. On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote: > How bad would it be for API designers and users if java.lang.String were > mutable? I would say really, really bad. You could add a lot of comments to > the API documentation, but you’d never really be sure that everyone was > adhering to the contract. > > > On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:59 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > What is so bad about declaring that variable as a List and making it an > > ImmutableList underneath? > > > > Guard it in the programmer's mind by comments and naming. And if they > don't > > believe you, it still can't be changed. > > > > This avoids Guava leakage in the API and still gives you (nearly) all of > > the benefits of the ImmutableList type. > > > > Kind of give a little to get a little. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 5:10 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote: > > > >> What is so bad about Guava? I have always found it to be a high quality > >> library. I hear that they have broken backwards compatibility on one or > two > >> occasions, but I’ve never been affected by that personally. > >> > >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 12:04 PM, Andrew Purtell <apurt...@apache.org> > wrote: > >>> > >>> No argument that naming should set expectations of immutability if > that's > >>> what should be conveyed, but Guava types (or Guava anything) is a means > >> to > >>> an end that can inflict significant pain on downstreamers. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Calcite’s API has a large surface area. The API consists not just of > >>>> method calls, but also data objects. For example, the Project class > [1] > >>>> represents a project node in a relational algebra expression. Its main > >>>> field is “public final ImmutableList<RexNode> exps”. It is very > >> important > >>>> that everyone, especially the client, understands that that list is > >>>> immutable. When you create a Project, you do not need to make a > >> defensive > >>>> copy of the list because no one is able to modify it. > >>>> > >>>> Imagine the mayhem if java.lang.String was mutable. As an API designer > >> you > >>>> would have to spell out whether the caller or the provider is allowed > to > >>>> change the string, and at what time. You would worry about thread > >> safety, > >>>> if the string has been shared with another thread. Well, I believe > that > >>>> Guava immutable collections prevent the same kinds of mayhem. I would > >> call > >>>> that good API design. > >>>> > >>>> The immutable collections and functions are in every Guava version, so > >> we > >>>> really don’t care which Guava version we use, as long as it is not > >> shaded. > >>>> > >>>> Julian > >>>> > >>>> [1] https://calcite.apache.org/apidocs/org/apache/calcite/ > >>>> rel/core/Project.html <https://calcite.apache.org/ > >>>> apidocs/org/apache/calcite/rel/core/Project.html> > >>>> > >>>>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 6:02 PM, Andrew Purtell <andrew.purt...@gmail.com > > > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I wouldn't call embedding Guava types in a public API either a > service > >>>> for users nor good API design, given the pain I've personally seen it > >>>> inflict on multiple projects given Google's uncaring nature on cross > >>>> version compatibility. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 5:35 PM, Jacques Nadeau <jacq...@apache.org> > >> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Do you have a sense of how often we expose these? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> One random thought, shade Guava and continue to expose the > >> shaded.guava > >>>>>> classes in public APIs. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> People could choose to use the unshaded or shaded. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm not keen on shading Guava, because I want to include some of > >>>>>>> Guava's classes in Calcite's public API: for example ImmutableList > >> and > >>>>>>> Function. Using these classes in APIs makes better APIs. They > should > >>>>>>> be in the JDK, but sadly they're not, so we use Guava. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Calcite's policy has been to support a wide range of Guava versions > >>>>>>> but to drop support for really old versions. We can use features in > >>>>>>> newer versions via reflection, as long as we don't introduce a link > >>>>>>> dependency (i.e. we call via reflection) and we can provide > fallback > >>>>>>> for older versions. All of this is identical to our policy for > JDKs, > >>>>>>> really. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> All we need is that our dependencies move off the really old > versions > >>>>>>> in a timely fashion. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Julian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Andrew Purtell > >>>>>>> <andrew.purt...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Use hbase-shaded-client as Maven dep (1.1 and up) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 10:12 AM, James Taylor < > jamestay...@apache.org> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Does shading of protobuf on the HBase client work (or is that > >>>> dependent > >>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>> that brave work Stack is doing)? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Andrew Purtell < > >>>>>>> andrew.purt...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> James - When Stack is finished coprocessors will work with > shaded > >>>>>>>>>> protobuf. Not yet. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 10:07 AM, James Taylor < > >> jamestay...@apache.org > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Also agree - shading of guava & protobuf would be super > valuable. > >>>>>>> Phoenix > >>>>>>>>>>> ended up not supporting shading of protobuf because of > >> difficulties > >>>>>>>>>> getting > >>>>>>>>>>> it to work (maybe because HBase dependency?). I think we > support > >>>>>>> shading > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>> Guava, though. Is that correct, Sergey? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Jacques Nadeau < > >>>> jacq...@apache.org> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> +1 on shading guava/protobuf. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 9:48 AM, Andrew Purtell < > >>>>>>>>>> andrew.purt...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Since Calcite should become a widely used library (smile) I > >>>> think it > >>>>>>>>>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>>>>> be prudent to shade Guava and protobuf if Calcite depends on > >>>> them. > >>>>>>> Then > >>>>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>>>>> will play very nicely indeed on the classpath no matter what > >>>>>>> versions > >>>>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>>>>>>> required by calling code. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques - Good lord. Let me see about shading HBase use of > >>>> Guava, or > >>>>>>>>>>>>> eliminating it. Unfortunately that will be no help in the > short > >>>>>>> term. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Related, our Stack is wrestling with shading protobuf > already, > >>>> and > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> neck > >>>>>>>>>>>>> deep in the Swamp of Classloading at the moment. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 9:06 AM, Jacques Nadeau < > >> jacq...@apache.org> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't a real solution but in Drill we solved the HBase > >>>>>>>>>>>> incompatibility > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue on the server side (for tests only) by patching Guava > 18 > >>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> allow > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HBase Guava calls that are missing. They are really quite > >>>> trivial > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> support Andrew's arguments that Guava is the devil... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/drill/blob/master/exec/java- > >>>>>>>>>>>>> exec/src/main/java/org/apache/drill/exec/util/GuavaPatcher. > >> java > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Andrew Purtell < > >>>>>>>>>>>> andrew.purt...@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While that seems very unfriendly of them, the main issue is > >>>> Guava > >>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devil (and protobuf is a minor demon). Would shading be an > >>>> option? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2016, at 2:03 AM, CPC <acha...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cassandra driver 3.x require min guava 16.0.1. If it > detects > >>>> an > >>>>>>>>>>>> earlier > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version in classpath it stops working. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 3, 2016 04:26, "Julian Hyde" <jh...@apache.org> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> James & Andrew, I hear you. We’ll stay on Guava 12 if we > >> have > >>>>>>> to. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But can we try an experiment to see if it’s possible to > get > >>>> away > >>>>>>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I propose that Maryann (who is developing the branch of > >>>> Phoenix > >>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uses > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Calcite) tries running with https://github.com/apache/ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> calcite/pull/277 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/calcite/pull/277>. If we > >> discover > >>>>>>>>>>>> problems, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can try various solutions, like make the DateRangeRules > >>>>>>> disabled by > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> default > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (these, and the Druid adapter, are the only parts of > >> Calcite > >>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>> need > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guava 14), or even copy the Guava classes that we need. > If > >>>> there > >>>>>>>>>>>>> aren’t > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems, it means that we’ve slipped out of the shackles > >> of > >>>>>>>>>> inertia > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are trying to drag us into an early grave. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2016, at 5:35 PM, James Taylor < > >>>>>>> jamestay...@apache.org> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the server-side, HBase depends on Guava 12 (because > >>>> Hadoop > >>>>>>>>>>>> depends > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same). For that reason, we've made sure Phoenix can > >> work > >>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version too. Phoenix may not need to depend on Calcite > on > >>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server-side, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Phoenix and HBase both have shading, so there may be > >>>> some > >>>>>>>>>>>> avenues > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escape. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry for the muddled answer. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Andrew Purtell < > >>>>>>>>>>>> apurt...@apache.org > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use of Guava 14 introduces at least a compile time > >> problem > >>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>>>>> HBase, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which Phoenix depends, so I'm not sure Phoenix can move > >>>> off of > >>>>>>>>>> 13. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happy to be proven wrong. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Julian Hyde < > >>>>>>> jh...@apache.org> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Calcite currently supports a wide range of Guava > >> versions, > >>>>>>> from > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12.0.1 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19.0*. For https://issues.apache.org/ > >>>>>>> jira/browse/CALCITE-1334 < > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CALCITE-1334> > I’d > >>>>>>> like to > >>>>>>>>>>>>> use > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RangeSet, which was introduced in Guava 14. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would anyone have a problem if we made Calcite’s > minimum > >>>>>>> Guava > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 14.0.1? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see that Hive uses 14.0.1, Phoenix uses 13, Drill > uses > >>>> 18. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julian > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Except for the Druid adapter, which requires 14; see > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CALCITE-1325 < > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CALCITE-1325> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Andy > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting > >>>> back. - > >>>>>>>>>>>> Piet > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hein > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (via Tom White) > >>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> - Andy > >>> > >>> Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet > Hein > >>> (via Tom White) > >> > >> > >
