+1 to Stamatis’ idea. It won’t make things worse. :) But to repeat what I said earlier. We need existing committers to pull their weight. If necessary, committers need to talk to their managers and get time allocated to contribute to “housekeeping”.
One important kind of housekeeping is productization. That means not just getting features and bug fixes into Calcite, but adding sufficient documentation that users know they exist and how to use them. You may have noticed that I spend a lot of effort asking people to improve the subject and description of JIRA cases, and making sure that the commit message matches the JIRA subject. I do this because usually the only documentation of a feature is the line in the release notes and the JIRA case it links to. This effort is key to Calcite’s success, and quite a few committers don’t do it. If committers did a better job in this area, it would reduce the workload on me. Julian > On Jun 23, 2022, at 6:44 AM, Ruben Q L <rube...@gmail.com> wrote: > > +1 on Stamatis' idea, I think it could help with the current situation of > lack of reviewers. > > Best, > Ruben > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 12:56 PM Charles Givre <cgi...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hello all, >> FWIW, If a committer/reviewer shortage is the issue, I'd second Stamatis's >> recommendation. >> Best, >> -- C >> >>> On Jun 23, 2022, at 7:02 AM, Stamatis Zampetakis <zabe...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> How about granting Calcite committership to people who are already ASF >>> committers (in other projects) and they have a proven record of working >>> with Calcite? >>> >>> Usually the PMC invites people to become committers to the project after >>> having a few successful code contributions in Calcite/Avatica repos. >>> This is to ensure that people are familiar with the codebase and >> understand >>> how the ASF works. >>> >>> People who are already committers in an ASF project already know how the >>> foundation works and how they should behave. >>> Also people working in projects like Drill, Flink, Hive, Ignite, Phoenix, >>> etc., may already be quite familiar with Calcite if they have worked on >> the >>> query processing layer of the system. >>> >>> It might be difficult for the Calcite PMC to identify people familiar >> with >>> Calcite if they don't contribute to the main Calcite/Avatica repos >>> regularly thus I would be open to consider people for committers on a per >>> request basis. >>> >>> Example: >>> Bob is an ASF committer in Flink and he has pushed various contributions >>> around Calcite in the Flink repo. >>> Bob feels confident about fixing trivial things in Calcite and he wants >> to >>> help with reviewing and merging open PRs. >>> Bob sends an email to private@calcite list requesting to become a >> Calcite >>> committer. >>> Bob explains in the email who he is and what he has done to demonstrate >> he >>> is familiar with the Calcite code. >>> The Calcite PMC acknowledges the request and starts a vote for granting >>> Calcite comittership to Bob. >>> The Calcite PMC informs Bob about their decision and takes further >> actions >>> if necessary. >>> >>> If we agree on the overall idea we can figure out the details and >> formalize >>> the request process in our docs. >>> >>> Best, >>> Stamatis >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:06 AM Jing Zhang <beyond1...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> This is an awesome discussion to improve collaborating between different >>>> projects. >>>> Thanks Julian, Jacques, Austin, Martijn, Timo's effort to make it >> happen. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Jing Zhang >>>> >>>> Martijn Visser <martijnvis...@apache.org> 于2022年6月23日周四 01:43写道： >>>> >>>>> Hi Jacques, Julian, Austin and everyone else, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you very much for sharing all your experiences and providing >> really >>>>> valuable input. I'll definitely relay this back to the original >>>> discussion >>>>> thread in the Flink community. Part of bringing this information back >> to >>>>> the Flink community is also because I feel like the only way that >>>> different >>>>> OSS solutions can help each other forward is by communicating and >>>>> collaborating. As Timo already mentioned, he'll try to help out. Let's >>>> try >>>>> to get some more involved. >>>>> >>>>> Side note: I also saw that this thread got some traction on Twitter [1] >>>> on >>>>> the cost of forking. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Martijn >>>>> >>>>> [1] >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> https://twitter.com/gunnarmorling/status/1539499415337111553?s=21&t=8fGk3PxScOx4FJPJWE5UeA >>>>> >>>>> Op wo 22 jun. 2022 om 09:29 schreef Timo Walther <twal...@apache.org>: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a really great discussion. Thanks for starting it Martijn and >>>>>> your input Jacques! I have been fighting against forking Calcite in >>>>>> Flink for years already. Even when merging forks of Flink that >>>>>> transitively forked Calcite, in the end we were able to resolve >>>>>> conflicts / contribute blockers back into Calcite. And I strongly >>>>>> believe that this is the better approach for long-term success for >> both >>>>>> projects. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to get more involved in the Calcite community. I have >> been >>>>>> implementing and managing Flink SQL based on Calcite since 2016. Thus, >>>> I >>>>>> feel confident to say that I know the code base and some quirks in the >>>>>> stack very well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Capacity-wise I will try to reserve some time for helping the Calcite >>>>>> community. Happy to get some pointers where and how I can help. >>>>>> >>>>>> I will take a look at https://github.com/apache/calcite/pull/2606 >> this >>>>>> week to get the ball rolling. As this is an important addition and >>>>>> prepares for "customer SQL operators" in Flink SQL. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Timo >>>>>> >>>>>> On 21.06.22 22:18, Charles Givre wrote: >>>>>>> As the PMC for Apache Drill, I'd echo everyone's comments here.... >>>>> Don't >>>>>> fork. Don't do it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apache Drill forked Calcite several years ago which Calcite was on >>>>>> version 1.20 or 1.21. While this meant that some bugs were easily >>>> fixed, >>>>>> what it also meant that as our fork diverged from "regular" Calcite, >> it >>>>>> became harder and harder to maintain. It also meant that we were >>>> chasing >>>>>> bugs that had since been fixed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Drill is in the process of "de-forking" Calcite, meaning that we're >>>>>> ditching our fork and re-integrating with standard Calcite. It has >>>> been >>>>> A >>>>>> TON of work and we have contributed (and will continue to contribute) >>>> bug >>>>>> fixes and PRs to Calcite. In the long run, I think this will be >>>>> beneficial >>>>>> for both communities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> -- C >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2022, at 1:57 PM, Julian Hyde <jhyde.apa...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please don’t fork Calcite. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Calcite suffers from the tragedy of the commons. Unlike many open >>>>>> source data projects, there is no commercial project that directly >> maps >>>>> to >>>>>> Calcite (even though Calcite is an essential part of many projects). >>>> As a >>>>>> result no engineers work full-time on Calcite. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It takes more than pull requests to keep a project going. We need >>>>>> reviewers, people to work on releases, people to fix bugs (such as >>>>> security >>>>>> bugs) that are important to everyone but urgent to no one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We have plenty of committers in Calcite, and add several more per >>>>> year. >>>>>> We rely on those committers taking on their share of the housework, >> but >>>>> the >>>>>> burden falls on too few people. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Engineering managers need to start paying a little more for the >>>> “free >>>>>> lunch” that they enjoy when Calcite “just works” in their project. >>>> Sadly, >>>>>> most engineering managers are not subscribed to this list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Julian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Jacques Nadeau <jacq...@apache.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Martijn, thanks for sharing that thread in the Flink community. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm someone who has forked Calcite twice: once in Apache Drill and >>>>>> again in >>>>>>>>> Dremio. In both cases, it was all about trading short term benefits >>>>>> against >>>>>>>>> long term costs. In both cases, I think the net amount of work was >>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>> 5x as much as what it would have been if we had just done a better >>>>> job >>>>>>>>> engaging the community. If I were to state the curve of behavior >>>> over >>>>>> six >>>>>>>>> years, I'd guess that in both cases the numbers of effort looked >>>> like >>>>>> this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> estimated effort doing high intensity integration with calcite >>>> (years >>>>>> 1-6) >>>>>>>>> fork: 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 200, total = 366 >>>>>>>>> non-fork: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, total = 50 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So yes, the first couple years you're ahead. But you pay a massive >>>>>>>>> technical debt premium long term. Early in a project (Drill) or >>>>>> company's >>>>>>>>> life (Dremio), it can make sense to sacrifice long term for short >>>>> term >>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> it's important people do it with their eyes open. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The reason that this pain is so high is that as your codebases >>>>>> diverge, you >>>>>>>>> start having to do everything the Calcite community does by >>>> yourself. >>>>>>>>> Backports become harder and things that you need (e.g. new sql >>>>> syntax, >>>>>> etc) >>>>>>>>> have to be reimplemented (even if someone else already implemented >>>>>> them in >>>>>>>>> some post-fork Calcite version. Ultimately, at some point you >>>> realize >>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> your path is untenable and you unfork. This becomes the biggest >>>>>> expense of >>>>>>>>> them all and I believe both of those teams are still trying to >>>>>> un-fork. The >>>>>>>>> additional thing that becomes an even bigger problem is your >>>> absence >>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> the Calcite community means that people may take the project or >>>> APIs >>>>> in >>>>>>>>> ways that are in direct conflict to how you use the library. Since >>>>>> you're >>>>>>>>> not active in the project, you fail to provide a counterpoint and >>>>> then >>>>>>>>> you're basically just in a miserable place. The Hive project did >>>> this >>>>>> best >>>>>>>>> by ensuring that releases of Calcite were also run pre-release >>>>> against >>>>>> Hive >>>>>>>>> to make sure no major regressions occurred. By being in the >>>> community >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> active, this is the best state from my pov. (It makes your project >>>>>> better >>>>>>>>> and Calcite better.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Two last notes: >>>>>>>>> - I'm not sure the rocks fork is comparable to forking Calcite. The >>>>> api >>>>>>>>> surface area and community models are very different. >>>>>>>>> - This is all based on a high intensity integration (using rules + >>>>>> planner >>>>>>>>> or sql + rules + planner). Calcite is frustratingly monolithic and >>>> if >>>>>>>>> someone was only going to use a small component, my opinion would >>>>>> likely be >>>>>>>>> very different. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd send this to the Flink list but I'm not subscribed. It'd be >>>> great >>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> you shared it with the people over there if you think they'd find >>>> it >>>>>> useful. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 12:31 AM Martijn Visser < >>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks Julian and Austin! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Any reply to kick-off some sort of discussion is worthwhile :D >>>>>>>>>> I definitely know the feeling of having more PRs open then you >>>> would >>>>>> like, >>>>>>>>>> looking at https://github.com/apache/flink/pulls :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There have been discussions in the Flink community about forking >>>>>> Calcite >>>>>>>>>> [1]. My personal preference at the moment is to see if we can >>>>> create a >>>>>>>>>> better collaboration and community. I believe that we can find >>>>> people >>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> the Flink community who can open / help reviewing Calcite PRs that >>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> interesting for the Flink community. The question is if that will >>>>>> also help >>>>>>>>>> short term since in the end it still requires a Calcite maintainer >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> review/merge. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Martijn >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [1] >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/1oqydpsm4mc55bkk440gx9lr9gf2rvf4 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Op ma 20 jun. 2022 om 23:51 schreef Austin Bennett < >>>>>>>>>> whatwouldausti...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From the peanut gallery :-) --> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wow; yes, lots of open PRs. >>>>> https://github.com/apache/calcite/pulls >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> How can individuals from the Flink [sub-]community, and/or more >>>>>> general >>>>>>>>>>> calcite community help lighten this load? Is there much weight >>>>>> given to >>>>>>>>>>> reviews from non-committers; how to increase the # of people >>>>> capable >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> providing worthwhile reviews [ that are recognized as such ]? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2022 at 11:47 AM Julian Hyde < >>>>> jhyde.apa...@gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Since you requested a reply, I am replying. To answer your >>>>>> question, I >>>>>>>>>>>> don’t know of a way to move this topic forward. We have more PRs >>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>>> people to review them. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Julian >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 2022, at 11:58 PM, Martijn Visser < >>>>>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to reach out to the Calcite community once more >>>> on >>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> topic >>>>>>>>>>>>> since no reply was received. Would be great if someone could >>>> get >>>>>> back >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> us. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Op wo 8 jun. 2022 om 11:24 schreef Martijn Visser < >>>>>>>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> : >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to follow-up on this email that was sent by Jing. >>>>> So >>>>>>>>>> far, >>>>>>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>>>>>>>> progress has been made, despite reaching out to the mailing >>>>> list, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> original Jira ticket and reaching out to people directly. Is >>>>>> there a >>>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we can move this PR/topic forward? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For context, in Apache Flink we're currently heavily using >>>>>> Calcite. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, we are now at the stage where Calcite is actually >>>>> holding >>>>>>>>>> us >>>>>>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It would be great if we can find a way to strengthen our bond >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Calcite and Flink forward. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking forward to your thoughts, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Martijn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022/01/26 07:05:37 Jing Zhang wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi community, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My apologies for interrupting. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone could help to review the pr >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/calcite/pull/2606? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CALCITE-4865 is the first sub-task of CALCITE-4864. This Jira >>>>>> aims >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extend existing Table function in order to support >>>> Polymorphic >>>>>>>>>> Table >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Function which is introduced as the part of ANSI SQL 2016. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The brief change logs of the PR are: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Update `Parser.jj` to support partition by clause and order >>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>> clause >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for input table with set semantics of PTF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Introduce `TableCharacteristics` which contains three >>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of input table of table function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Update `SqlTableFunction` to add a method >>>>>>>>>> `tableCharacteristics`, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> method returns the table characteristics for the ordinal-th >>>>>>>>>> argument >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this table function. Default return value is Optional.empty >>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ordinal-th argument is not table. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Introduce `SqlSetSemanticsTable` which represents input >>>> table >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> set >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of Table Function, its `SqlKind` is >>>>>> `SET_SEMANTICS_TABLE` >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Updates `SqlValidatorImpl` to validate only set semantic >>>>> table >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Table >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Function could have partition by and order by clause >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Update `SqlToRelConverter#substituteSubQuery` to parse >>>>> subQuery >>>>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represents set semantics table. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PR: https://github.com/apache/calcite/pull/2606 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JIRA: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CALCITE-4865 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Parent JARA: >>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CALCITE-4864 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jing Zhang >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >>
