+1 to 6 months. On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Ellis <jbel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree that 6 month seems like a reasonable compromise. > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Blake Eggleston <beggles...@apple.com> > wrote: > > > I agree that 3.10 should be the last tick-tock release, but I also agree > > with Jon that we shouldn't go back to yearly-ish releases. > > > > 6 months has come up several times now as a good cadence for feature > > releases, and I think it's a good compromise between the competing > > interests of long term support, regular release of features (to prevent > > piling on), and effort to release. So +1 to 6 month releases. > > > > On January 10, 2017 at 10:14:12 AM, Ariel Weisberg (ar...@weisberg.ws) > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > With yearly releases trunk is going to be a mess when it comes time to > > cut a release. Cutting releases is when people start caring whether all > > the things in the release are in a finished state. It's when the state > > of CI finally becomes relevant. > > > > If we wait a year we are going to accumulate a years worth of unfinished > > stuff in a single release. It's more expensive to context switch back > > and then address those issues. If we put out large unstable releases it > > means time until the features in the release are usable is pushed back > > even further since it takes another 6-12 months for the release to > > stabilize. Features introduced at the beginning of the cycle will have > > to wait 18-24 months before anyone can benefit from them. > > > > Is the biggest pain point with tick-tock just the elimination of long > > term support releases? What is the pain point around release frequency? > > Right now people should be using 3.0 unless they need a bleeding edge > > feature from 3.X and those people will have to give up something to get > > something. > > > > Ariel > > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017, at 10:29 AM, Jonathan Haddad wrote: > > > I don't see why it has to be one extreme (yearly) or another (monthly). > > > When you had originally proposed Tick Tock, you wrote: > > > > > > "The primary goal is to improve release quality. Our current major “dot > > > zero” releases require another five or six months to make them stable > > > enough for production. This is directly related to how we pile features > > > in > > > for 9 to 12 months and release all at once. The interactions between > the > > > new features are complex and not always obvious. 2.1 was no exception, > > > despite DataStax hiring a full tme test engineering team specifically > for > > > Apache Cassandra." > > > > > > I agreed with you at the time that the yearly cycle was too long to be > > > adding features before cutting a release, and still do now. Instead of > > > elastic banding all the way back to a process which wasn't working > > > before, > > > why not try somewhere in the middle? A release every 6 months (with > > > monthly bug fixes for a year) gives: > > > > > > 1. long enough time to stabilize (1 year vs 1 month) > > > 2. not so long things sit around untested forever > > > 3. only 2 releases (current and previous) to do bug fix support at any > > > given time. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 6:56 AM Jonathan Ellis <jbel...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > We’ve had a few threads now about the successes and failures of the > > > > tick-tock release process and what to do to replace it, but they all > > died > > > > out without reaching a robust consensus. > > > > > > > > In those threads we saw several reasonable options proposed, but from > > my > > > > perspective they all operated in a kind of theoretical fantasy land > of > > > > testing and development resources. In particular, it takes around a > > > > person-week of effort to verify that a release is ready. That is, > going > > > > through all the test suites, inspecting and re-running failing tests > > to see > > > > if there is a product problem or a flaky test. > > > > > > > > (I agree that in a perfect world this wouldn’t be necessary because > > your > > > > test ci is always green, but see my previous framing of the perfect > > world > > > > as a fantasy land. It’s also worth noting that this is a common > problem > > > > for large OSS projects, not necessarily something to beat ourselves > up > > > > over, but in any case, that's our reality right now.) > > > > > > > > I submit that any process that assumes a monthly release cadence is > not > > > > realistic from a resourcing standpoint for this validation. Notably, > we > > > > have struggled to marshal this for 3.10 for two months now. > > > > > > > > Therefore, I suggest first that we collectively roll up our sleeves > to > > vet > > > > 3.10 as the last tick-tock release. Stick a fork in it, it’s done. No > > > > more tick-tock. > > > > > > > > I further suggest that in place of tick tock we go back to our old > > model of > > > > yearly-ish releases with as-needed bug fix releases on stable > branches, > > > > probably bi-monthly. This amortizes the release validation problem > > over a > > > > longer development period. And of course we remain free to ramp back > > up to > > > > the more rapid cadence envisioned by the other proposals if we > > increase our > > > > pool of QA effort or we are able to eliminate flakey tests to the > point > > > > that a long validation process becomes unnecessary. > > > > > > > > (While a longer dev period could mean a correspondingly more painful > > test > > > > validation process at the end, my experience is that most of the > > validation > > > > cost is “fixed” in the form of flaky tests and thus does not increase > > > > proportionally to development time.) > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jonathan Ellis > > > > co-founder, http://www.datastax.com > > > > @spyced > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jonathan Ellis > co-founder, http://www.datastax.com > @spyced >
