On 2 July 2015 at 18:05, Pierre Smits <pierre.sm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is a good thing that the board and the President regard the Code of > Conduct page as an official ASF policy and expect others to follow it, but > when at least one of its members in more than one occasion states that > projects are independent (of the ASF) regarding how they conduct their > business - except for the license aspect - it is rendered a paper tiger... > I think you are driving a simple statement far longer than intended. We do not (luckily) have many polices at ASF, but of course a project must follow those. A project can independent, make extra policies or even harden the ASF policies (e.g. voting rules). A project that act totally independent of ASF only following the license rules, cannot really be a ASF project. > Having such an official ASF policy without the executing office policing > it, without podlings being required to accept and instill it in their > bylaws before graduation and allowing existing projects not to incorporate > it makes it nothing more than a hollow statement, > Being part of IPMC, I thought it was part of the incubator to make sure that exactly this happened. I for one, does not see things as negative as you signal. Things can always improve, but please not in the direction, that board installs a policy police. We, the committers, are those "controlling" that polices are kept,not the board or any exec office. just my opinion. rgds jan i. > > Something to think about when making statement like these.... > > Best regards, > > Pierre Smits > > Op donderdag 2 juli 2015 heeft Shane Curcuru <a...@shanecurcuru.org> het > volgende geschreven: > > > On 6/30/15 2:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 06/30/2015 12:37 PM, Stefan Reich wrote: > > >> I'm almost tired of criticizing so much, but... I think a "code of > > >> conduct" > > >> is evil legalese and should be abandoned. > > >> > > >> Like Jesus said: "Love is the only law you need." > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, that hasn't worked out for us so far. > > > > More to the point, the board and the President have made it clear that > > the current CoC is an official ASF policy, so for interactions at ASF > > events or on our mailing lists, we expect people to follow it when > > working here on Apache projects. > > > > Obviously, other organizations or individuals can choose to use (or not) > > their own CoCs for their own projects, but this is the one we've chosen > > here. > > > > - Shane > > > > > > > > A CoC serves several real needs. Publicly stating that we have such an > > > expectation makes the ASF more welcoming to joiners. It also makes > > > explicit some of the expectations for people who bull through life > > > without thinking about their interactions. > > > > > > Google for 'why we need a code of conduct' and then click on a link at > > > random and you'll get a more articulate statement of why this is > > > absolutely critical to an organization like ours that spans cultures, > > > timezones, projects, and many other borders. > > > > > > It is simply not the case that people just naturally know the right way > > > to behave. And it is the case that we need to have given careful > thought > > > to what we're going to do about it when people are jerks. > > > > > > Even Jesus violently threw people out of the temple when they broke the > > > code of conduct. > > > > > > --Rich > > > > > >> > > >> Cheers > > >> Stefan > > >> > > >> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz > > >> <bdelacre...@apache.org <javascript:;> > > >>> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hi, > > >>> > > >>> Someone mentioned to me that they find the first paragraph of > > >>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html overly broad, > > >>> and I tend to agree. > > >>> > > >>> That paragraph says "this code of conduct governs how we behave in > any > > >>> forum and whenever we will be judged by our actions" which implies > > >>> that it also applies outside of "ASF territory" - I don't think > that's > > >>> appropriate. The next paragraph mentions "spaces managed by the > Apache > > >>> Software Foundation" which I find much more appropriate, maybe > > >>> expanded with "and whenever we represent the ASF". > > >>> > > >>> The reasoning is that we can only speak about our own territory. > > >>> > > >>> As a simple example, putting your hand on someone's shoulder while > > >>> talking to them is totally welcome in some cultures while considered > > >>> "unwelcome sexual attention" (to reuse the words of that document) in > > >>> others. We might ask people to refrain from doing that in our > > >>> multi-cultural environment where we need to go down to some common > > >>> denominator of acceptable behavior, but we can't blame them for doing > > >>> that where it's culturally acceptable and even expected. The same > goes > > >>> with profanity, where the acceptable level varies immensely between > > >>> cultures. > > >>> > > >>> So I think it's good to restrict our code of conduct to our own > > >>> territory. > > >>> > > >>> I suggest reworking the first few paragraphs as follows, to clarify > > >>> that: > > >>> > > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** > > >>> This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the Apache > > >>> Software Foundation, including IRC, all public and private mailing > > >>> lists, issue trackers, wikis, blogs, Twitter, and any other > > >>> communication channel used by our communities. A code of conduct > which > > >>> is specific to in-person events (ie., conferences) is codified in the > > >>> published ASF anti-harassment policy. > > >>> > > >>> We expect this code of conduct to be honored by everyone who > > >>> participates in the Apache community formally or informally, or > claims > > >>> any affiliation with the Foundation, in any Foundation-related > > >>> activities and especially when representing the ASF, in any role. > > >>> > > >>> This code is not exhaustive or complete....(unchanged from here on) > > >>> *** reworked code of conduct intro section *** > > >>> > > >>> What do people think? > > >>> -Bertrand > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Pierre Smits > > *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>* > Services & Solutions for Cloud- > Based Manufacturing, Professional > Services and Retail & Trade > http://www.orrtiz.com >
