Nice message Rich. TY for the links as well. Gary
On Wed, Jul 22, 2026 at 9:24 AM Rich Bowen <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 22, 2026, at 8:53 AM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > On 22 Jul 2026, at 12:46, Rich Bowen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2026, 05:02 Dirk-Willem van Gulik <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >>> First - I'd be wary of this as a concept - we are all volunteers -- being > >>> asked to join the PMC is both a trust thing -and- also something of an > >>> imposition or burden on that volunteer. They get extra responsibility and > >>> work. So - really -- not a promotion at all. > >> > >> Surely that's literally what a promotion is? What's a job promotion - more > >> responsibility and work along with extra trust or privilege. > > > > This may be a cultural/language thing - but for me, the word promotion, is > > something akin to a higher step of a ladder, higher up in a hierarchy - > > where your output, word, work, etc is of more value than that of others - > > and where you get to command and delegate. Or when a call is to be made - > > the one with the promition makes it - is -expected- to amke it. > > Yes. And that is exactly the case with committers and PMC members. And we > *explicitly* call it a ladder on the community.apache.org > <http://community.apache.org/> website. > https://community.apache.org/contributor-ladder.html This is language that is > used across the entire open source ecosystem. > > https://ospoglossary.todogroup.org/contributor-ladder/ > > https://contribute.cncf.io/projects/best-practices/community/contributor-growth/incentivizing-contributors/ > > https://forum.opensearch.org/t/proposal-contributor-ladder-aka-how-can-someone-become-a-maintainer/5759 > > I don’t see this as derogatory in any way. It’s encouragement for > contributors to become owners. It’s the incentive we offer for that ownership. > > I don’t think any first-time contributor expects that their contributions > will be accepted blindly without skepticism. They have to earn that trust. > This is pretty central to our messaging at the ASF, and always has been. > Merit is earned. We use that phrasing everywhere and have for decades. > > That does not mean, though, that the work is of more *value*, simply that the > trust hasn’t been earned yet. We *should* encourage people to earn trust, and > not expect that on day one they’ll be trusted with the reins. They have to > grow up to that. We all started at that level. > > > > > They are sort of the opposite of a merit/expertise specialist of volunteers > > all doing peer to peer what each is good at / contributes to. > > I disagree. Committers *do* have more merit, because they have demonstrated > and earned it. That’s what becoming a committer acknowledges. I’m not sure > why we would want to downplay that. > > > > >> Promotion never means that you're somehow a better or more valuable person, > >> does it? In what context would it mean that? > > > > It may not mean that in American -- but to my foreign ear - that is exactly > > how it echos - a person that is `somehow more, better, etc' > > Well, they are more. They have more trust, more merit, more experience, and > more ownership. > > “Better” is a loaded word here, and not one that I would use. But they have > demonstrated leadership, trust, and ownership. Those that do the work *do* > get to make the decisions. They *do* get more authority. They are, in fact, > more. That doesn’t mean that other contributors are somehow incompetent or > terrible or bad, just that they have not demonstrated that ownership and > trust yet. > > We use the phrase “those that do the work get to make the decisions” across > all of our ASF discussions, and, again, have for decades. The term > “Do-ocracy” is another one that we’ve used. Everyone has the opportunity to > get those promotions, they just haven’t yet. That doesn’t make them better or > worse. It makes them new or experienced. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
