Hi all, I also agree with Stephan on this!
It has been more than a year now that most of our efforts have had the "unify" / "unification"/ etc either on their title or in their core and this has been the focus of all our resources. By deviating from this now, we only put more stress on other teams in the future. When the users start using a given API, with high probability, they will ask (and it is totally reasonable) consistent behaviour from all the other APIs that ship with Flink. This will eventually lead to having to answer the questions that we now deem as difficult in a future release, when we will have to "unify" again. In addition, Hive integration is definitely a "nice to have" feature but it does not mean that we need to push for 100% compatibility if it is not required. @Jingsong Li if you think that Parquet and Orc are the main formats, we can focus on these and provide good support for them (both reading and writing). For maintainability, I think that given the amount of demand for these formats, it is not going to be a huge problem at least for now. Given the above, I am also leaning towards a solution that aims at extending the StreamingFileSink to efficiently support bulk formats like Parquet and Orc, rather than creating a new sink that locks Hive-dependent usecases to a specific API. Cheers, Kostas On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 12:03 PM Stephan Ewen <se...@apache.org> wrote: > > >> The FLIP is "Filesystem connector in Table", it's about building up > Flink Table's capabilities. > > That is exactly what worries me. The whole effort is not thinking about > Flink as a whole any more. > This proposal is not trying to build a consistent user experience across > batch and streaming, across Table API, SQL, and DataStream. > > The proposal is building a separate, disconnected ecosystem for the Table > API, specific to batch processing and some limited streaming setups. > Specific to one type of environment (Hive and HDFS). It willingly omits > support for other environments and conflicts with efforts in other > components to unify. > > Supporting common use cases is good, but in my opinion not at the price of > creating a "fractured" project where the approaches in different layers > don't fit together any more. > > > > *## StreamingFileSink not support writer with path* > > > > The FLIP is "Filesystem connector in Table", it's about building up Flink > > Table's capabilities. But I think Hive is important, I see that most users > > use Flink and Spark to write data from Kafka to hive. Streaming writing, I > > see that these two engines are convenient and popular. I mean, Flink is not > > only a hive runtime, but also an important part of offline data warehouse. > > The thing is StreamingFileSink not support hadoop record writers. Yes, we > > can support them one by one. I see the community integrating ORC [1]. But > > it's really not an easy thing. And we have to be careful to maintain > > compatibility. After all, users downstream use other computing engines to > > analyze. > > Yes, exposing "RecoverableFsDataOutputStream" to writers is good to > > subsequent optimization [2]. But there are many cases. It is enough for > > users to generate new files at the checkpoint. They pay more attention to > > whether they can do it and whether there is a risk of compatibility. > > Therefore, RecordWriter is used here. > > > > *## External HDFS access* > > > > Including hadoop configuration and Kerberos related things. > > > > *## Partition commit* > > > > Committing a partition is to notify the downstream application that the > > partition has finished writing, the partition is ready to be read.The > > common way is to add a success file or update metastore. Of course, there > > are other ways to notify. We need to provide flexible mechanisms. > > As you mentioned, yes, we can extend "StreamingFileSink" for this part. > > > > *## Batch / Streaming Unification* > > > > Yes, it is about exactly-once and single commit at the end, There are also > > some "bounded" differences. For example, batch can support sorting. In this > > way, you can sort by partition, which can reduce the number of writers > > written at the same time. Dynamic partition writing in batch may produce > > many unordered partitions. > > > > [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLINK-10114 > > [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLINK-11499 > > > > Best, > > Jingsong Lee > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 8:00 PM LakeShen <shenleifight...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Jingsong , > > > > > > I am looking forward this feature. Because in some streaming > > application,it > > > need transfer their messages to hdfs , in order to offline analysis. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > LakeShen > > > > > > Stephan Ewen <se...@apache.org> 于2020年3月17日周二 下午7:42写道： > > > > > > > I would really like to see us converging the stack and the > > functionality > > > > here. > > > > Meaning to try and use the same sinks in the Table API as for the > > > > DataStream API, and using the same sink for batch and streaming. > > > > > > > > The StreamingFileSink has a lot of things that can help with that. If > > > > possible, it would be nice to extend it (which would help move towards > > > the > > > > above goal) rather than build a second sink. Building a second sink > > leads > > > > us further away from unification. > > > > > > > > I am a bit puzzled by the statement that sinks are primarily for Hive. > > > The > > > > Table API should not be coupled to Hive, it should be an independent > > > > batch/streaming API for many use cases, supporting very well for batch > > > and > > > > streaming interplay. Supporting Hive is great, but we should not be > > > > building this towards Hive, as just yet another Hive runtime. Why "yet > > > > another Hive runtime" when what we have a unique streaming engine that > > > can > > > > do much more? We would drop our own strength and reduce ourselves to a > > > > limited subset. > > > > > > > > Let's build a File Sink that can also support Hive, but can do so much > > > > more. For example, efficient streaming file ingestion as materialized > > > views > > > > from changelogs. > > > > > > > > > > > > *## Writing Files in Streaming* > > > > > > > > To write files in streaming, I don't see another way than using the > > > > streaming file sink. If you want to write files across checkpoints, > > > support > > > > exactly-once, and support consistent "stop with savepoint", it is not > > > > trivial. > > > > > > > > A part of the complexity comes from the fact that not all targets are > > > > actually file systems, and not all have simple semantics for > > persistence. > > > > S3 for example does not support renames (only copies, which may take a > > > lot > > > > of time) and it does not support flush/sync of data (the S3 file system > > > in > > > > Hadoop exposes that but it does not work. flush/sync, followed by a > > > > failure, leads to data loss). You need to devise a separate protocol > > for > > > > that, which is exactly what has already been done and abstracted behind > > > the > > > > recoverable writers. > > > > > > > > If you re-engineer that in the, you will end up either missing many > > > things > > > > (intermediate persistence on different file systems, and atomic commit > > in > > > > the absence of renames, etc.), or you end up doing something similar as > > > the > > > > recoverable writers do. > > > > > > > > > > > > *## Atomic Commit in Batch* > > > > > > > > For batch sinks, it is also desirable to write the data first and then > > > > atomically commit it once the job is done. > > > > Hadoop has spent a lot of time making this work, see this doc here, > > > > specifically the section on 'The "Magic" Committer'. [1] > > > > > > > > What Flink has built in the RecoverableWriter is in some way an even > > > better > > > > version of this, because it works without extra files (we pass data > > > through > > > > checkpoint state) and it supports not only committing once at the end, > > > but > > > > committing multiple time intermediate parts during checkpoints. > > > > > > > > Meaning using the recoverable writer mechanism in batch would allow us > > to > > > > immediately get the efficient atomic commit implementations on file:// > > > > hdfs:// and s3://, with a well defined way to implement it also for > > other > > > > file systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > *## Batch / Streaming Unification* > > > > > > > > It would be great to start looking at these things in the same way: > > > > - streaming (exactly-once): commits files (after finished) at the > > next > > > > checkpoint > > > > - batch: single commit at the end of the job > > > > > > > > > > > > *## DataStream / Table API Stack Unification* > > > > > > > > Having the same set of capabilities would make it much easier for users > > > to > > > > understand the system. > > > > Especially when it comes to consistent behavior across external > > systems. > > > > Having a different file sink in Table API and DataStream API means that > > > > DataStream can write correctly to S3 while Table API cannot. > > > > > > > > > > > > *## What is missing?* > > > > > > > > It seems there are some things that get in the way of naturally > > > > Can you make a list of what features are missing in the > > StreamingFileSink > > > > that make it usable for the use cases you have in mind? > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Stephan > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://hadoop.apache.org/docs/current/hadoop-aws/tools/hadoop-aws/committer_architecture.html > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:31 PM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Piotr, > > > > > > > > > > I am very entangled. > > > > > > > > > > Let me re-list the table streaming sink requirements: > > > > > - In table, maybe 90% sinks are for Hive. The parquet and orc are the > > > > most > > > > > important formats. Hive provide RecordWriters, it is easy to support > > > all > > > > > hive formats by using it, and we don't need concern hive version > > > > > compatibility too, but it can not work with FSDataOutputStream. > > > > > - Hive table maybe use external HDFS. It means, hive has its own > > hadoop > > > > > configuration. > > > > > - In table, partition commit is needed, we can not just move files, > > it > > > is > > > > > important to complete table semantics to update catalog. > > > > > > > > > > You are right DataStream and Table streaming sink will not be fully > > > > > compatible, each with its own set of limitations, quirks and > > features. > > > > > But if re-using DataStream, batch and streaming also will not be > > fully > > > > > compatible. Provide a unify experience to batch and streaming is also > > > > > important. > > > > > > > > > > Table and DataStream have different concerns, and they tilt in > > > different > > > > > directions. > > > > > > > > > > Of course, it is very good to see a unify implementation to solve > > batch > > > > > sink and hive things, unify DataStream batch sink and DataStream > > > > streaming > > > > > sink and Table batch sink and Table streaming sink. > > > > > > > > > > Le's see what others think. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Jingsong Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 4:15 PM Piotr Nowojski <pi...@ververica.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jingsong, > > > > > > > > > > > > > First way is reusing Batch sink in FLINK-14254, It has handled > > the > > > > > > partition and metastore logic well. > > > > > > > - unify batch and streaming > > > > > > > - Using FileOutputFormat is consistent with FileInputFormat. > > > > > > > - Add exactly-once related logic. Just 200+ lines code. > > > > > > > - It's natural to support more table features, like partition > > > commit, > > > > > > auto compact and etc.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second way is reusing Datastream StreamingFileSink: > > > > > > > - unify streaming sink between table and Datastream. > > > > > > > - It maybe hard to introduce table related features to > > > > > StreamingFileSink. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I prefer the first way a little. What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be surprised if adding “exactly-once related logic” is just > > > 200 > > > > > > lines of code. There are things like multi part file upload to s3 > > and > > > > > there > > > > > > are also some pending features like [1]. I would suggest to > > > ask/involve > > > > > > Klou in this discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > If it’s as easy to support exactly-once streaming with current > > batch > > > > > sink, > > > > > > that begs the question, why do we need to maintain > > StreamingFileSink? > > > > > > > > > > > > The worst possible outcome from my perspective will be, if we have > > > > > another > > > > > > example of an operator/logic implemented independently both in > > > > DataStream > > > > > > API and Table API. Because I’m pretty sure they will not be fully > > > > > > compatible, each with it’s own set of limitations, quirks and > > > features. > > > > > > Especially that we have on our long term roadmap and wish list to > > > unify > > > > > > such kind of operators. > > > > > > > > > > > > Piotrek > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLINK-11499 < > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLINK-11499> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16 Mar 2020, at 06:55, Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Jinhai for involving. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> we need add 'connector.sink.username' for UserGroupInformation > > > when > > > > > data > > > > > > > is written to HDFS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I am not an expert of HDFS, but it seems we need do this > > > "doAs" > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > code for access external HDFS. I will update document. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > Jingsong Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:01 PM Jingsong Li < > > > jingsongl...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks Piotr and Yun for involving. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hi Piotr and Yun, for implementation, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> FLINK-14254 [1] introduce batch sink table world, it deals with > > > > > > partitions > > > > > > >> thing, metastore thing and etc.. And it just reuse > > > > Dataset/Datastream > > > > > > >> FileInputFormat and FileOutputFormat. Filesystem can not do > > > without > > > > > > >> FileInputFormat, because it need deal with file things, split > > > > things. > > > > > > Like > > > > > > >> orc and parquet, they need read whole file and have different > > > split > > > > > > logic. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> So back to file system connector: > > > > > > >> - It needs introducing FilesystemTableFactory, > > > FilesystemTableSource > > > > > and > > > > > > >> FilesystemTableSink. > > > > > > >> - For sources, reusing Dataset/Datastream FileInputFormats, > > there > > > > are > > > > > no > > > > > > >> other interface to finish file reading. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> For file sinks: > > > > > > >> - Batch sink use FLINK-14254 > > > > > > >> - Streaming sink has two ways. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> First way is reusing Batch sink in FLINK-14254, It has handled > > the > > > > > > >> partition and metastore logic well. > > > > > > >> - unify batch and streaming > > > > > > >> - Using FileOutputFormat is consistent with FileInputFormat. > > > > > > >> - Add exactly-once related logic. Just 200+ lines code. > > > > > > >> - It's natural to support more table features, like partition > > > > commit, > > > > > > auto > > > > > > >> compact and etc.. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Second way is reusing Datastream StreamingFileSink: > > > > > > >> - unify streaming sink between table and Datastream. > > > > > > >> - It maybe hard to introduce table related features to > > > > > > StreamingFileSink. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I prefer the first way a little. What do you think? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Hi Yun, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> Watermark mechanism might not be enough. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Watermarks of subtasks are the same in the "snapshotState". > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> we might need to also do some coordination between subtasks. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Yes, JobMaster is the role to control subtasks. Metastore is a > > > very > > > > > > >> fragile single point, which can not be accessed by distributed, > > so > > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > >> uniformly accessed by JobMaster. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [1]https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/FLINK-14254 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > > >> Jingsong Lee > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 6:43 PM Yun Gao <yungao...@aliyun.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Very thanks for Jinsong to bring up this discussion! It > > > > should > > > > > > >>> largely improve the usability after enhancing the FileSystem > > > > > connector > > > > > > in > > > > > > >>> Table. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> I have the same question with Piotr. From my side, I > > think > > > it > > > > > > >>> should be better to be able to reuse existing > > StreamingFileSink. > > > I > > > > > > think We > > > > > > >>> have began > > > > > > >>> enhancing the supported FileFormat (e.g., ORC, Avro...), > > > and > > > > > > >>> reusing StreamFileSink should be able to avoid repeat work in > > the > > > > > Table > > > > > > >>> library. Besides, > > > > > > >>> the bucket concept seems also matches the semantics of > > > > > partition. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> For the notification of adding partitions, I'm a little > > > > > wondering > > > > > > >>> that the Watermark mechanism might not be enough since > > > > > Bucket/Partition > > > > > > >>> might spans > > > > > > >>> multiple subtasks. It depends on the level of > > notification: > > > > if > > > > > we > > > > > > >>> want to notify for the bucket on each subtask, using watermark > > to > > > > > > notifying > > > > > > >>> each subtask > > > > > > >>> should be ok, but if we want to notifying for the whole > > > > > > >>> Bucket/Partition, we might need to also do some coordination > > > > between > > > > > > >>> subtasks. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Best, > > > > > > >>> Yun > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > >>> From:Piotr Nowojski <pi...@ververica.com> > > > > > > >>> Send Time:2020 Mar. 13 (Fri.) 18:03 > > > > > > >>> To:dev <dev@flink.apache.org> > > > > > > >>> Cc:user <u...@flink.apache.org>; user-zh < > > > user...@flink.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Subject:Re: [DISCUSS] FLIP-115: Filesystem connector in Table > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Which actual sinks/sources are you planning to use in this > > > feature? > > > > > Is > > > > > > it about exposing StreamingFileSink in the Table API? Or do you > > want > > > to > > > > > > implement new Sinks/Sources? > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Piotrek > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> On 13 Mar 2020, at 10:04, jinhai wang <jinhai...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> Thanks for FLIP-115. It is really useful feature for platform > > > > > > developers who manage hundreds of Flink to Hive jobs in production. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> I think we need add 'connector.sink.username' for > > > > > > UserGroupInformation when data is written to HDFS > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> 在 2020/3/13 下午3:33，“Jingsong Li”<jingsongl...@gmail.com> 写入: > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Hi everyone, > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> I'd like to start a discussion about FLIP-115 Filesystem > > > > connector > > > > > > in Table > > > > > > >>>> [1]. > > > > > > >>>> This FLIP will bring: > > > > > > >>>> - Introduce Filesystem table factory in table, support > > > > > > >>>> csv/parquet/orc/json/avro formats. > > > > > > >>>> - Introduce streaming filesystem/hive sink in table > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>>> CC to user mail list, if you have any unmet needs, please > > feel > > > > > free > > > > > > to > > > > > > >>>> reply~ > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Look forward to hearing from you. > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> [1] > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLINK/FLIP-115%3A+Filesystem+connector+in+Table > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> Best, > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong Lee > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > >> Best, Jingsong Lee > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Best, Jingsong Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Best, Jingsong Lee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Best, Jingsong Lee > >
