>> + MR is dead Does MR know that? :)
Again. With all due respect, stack - still no suggestions what should we use for "bulk data move and transformation" instead of MR? Backup needs this, by default. We are talking about TBs of data in a single session. We not only copy data between src and dest, but transform it as well on-the-fly (WALs into HFiles) That can be Spark in a future, of course, but not right now. Framework is open. I suggest voting first on "do we need backup in HBase"? In my opinion, some group members still not sure about that and some will give -1 in any case. Just because ... -Vlad On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote: > On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 6:46 AM, Matteo Bertozzi <theo.berto...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > let me try to go back to my original topic. > > this question was meant to be generic, and provide some rule for future > > code. > > > > from what I can gather, a rule that may satisfy everyone can be: > > - we don't want any core feature (e.g. compaction/log-split/log-reply) > > over MR, because some cluster may not want or may have an > > external/uncontrolled MR setup. > > > > +1 > > > > - we allow non-core features (e.g. features enabled by a flag) to run MR > > jobs from hbase, because unless you use the feature, MR is not required. > > > > > -1 to hbase core depending on MR or core -- whether behind a flag or not -- > ever being able to launch MR jobs. > > + MR is dead. We should be busy working hard to undo it from hbase-server > moving it out to be an optional module (Spark would be its peer). > + Master is a rats nest of state. Matteo, Stephen, and Appy are busy > working hard on moving it up on to a new foundation. Lets not clutter task > harder by piling on more moving parts. > > St.Ack > > > > Matteo > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Ted Yu <yuzhih...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I suggest you look at Matteo's work for AssignmentManager which is to > > make > > > Master more stable. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 5:32 AM, 张铎 <palomino...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > No, not your fault, at lease, not this time:) > > > > > > > > Why I call the code ugly? Can you simply tell me the sequence of > calls > > > when > > > > starting up the HMaster? HMaster is also a regionserver so it extends > > > > HRegionServer, and the initialization of HRegionServer sometimes > needs > > to > > > > make rpc calls to HMaster. A simple change would cause probabilistic > > dead > > > > lock or some strange NPEs... > > > > > > > > That's why I'm very nervous when somebody wants to add new features > or > > > add > > > > external dependencies to HMaster, especially add more works for the > > start > > > > up processing... > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > 2016-09-23 20:02 GMT+08:00 Ted Yu <yuzhih...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > > I read through HADOOP-13433 > > > > > <https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HADOOP-13433> - the cited > > race > > > > > condition is in jdk. > > > > > > > > > > Suggest pinging the reviewer on JIRA to get it moving. > > > > > > > > > > bq. But the ugly code in HMaster is readlly a problem... > > > > > > > > > > Can you be specific as to which code is ugly ? Is it in the backup > / > > > > > restore mega patch ? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 10:44 PM, 张铎 <palomino...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > If you guys have already implemented the feature in the MR way > and > > > the > > > > > > patch is ready for landing on master, I'm a -0 on it as I do not > > want > > > > to > > > > > > block the development progress. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I strongly suggest later we need to revisit the design and > see > > if > > > > we > > > > > > can seperated the logic from HMaster as much as possible. HA is > > not a > > > > big > > > > > > problem if you do not store any metada locally. But the ugly code > > in > > > > > > HMaster is readlly a problem... > > > > > > > > > > > > And for security, I have a issue pending for a long time. Can > > someone > > > > > help > > > > > > taking a simple look at it? This is what I mean, ugly code... > > logout > > > > and > > > > > > destroy the credentials in a subject when it is still being used, > > and > > > > > > declared as LimitPrivacy so I can not change the behivor and the > > only > > > > way > > > > > > to fix it is to write another piece of ugly code... > > > > > > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HADOOP-13433 > > > > > > > > > > > > 2016-09-23 12:53 GMT+08:00 Vladimir Rodionov < > > vladrodio...@gmail.com > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> If in the future, we find better ways of doing this without > > > using > > > > > MR, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > can certainly consider that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our framework for distributed operations is abstract and allows > > > > > > > different implementations. MR is just one implementation we > > > provide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Vlad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 9:38 PM, Devaraj Das < > > d...@hortonworks.com > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys, first off apologies for bringing in the topic of > MR-based > > > > > > > > compactions.. But I was thinking more about the SpliceMachine > > > > > approach > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > managing compactions in Spark where apparently they saw a lot > > of > > > > > > > benefits. > > > > > > > > Apologies for giving you that sore throat Andrew; I really > > didn't > > > > > mean > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So on this issue, we have these on the plate: > > > > > > > > 0. Somehow not use MR but something like that > > > > > > > > 1. Run a standalone service other than master > > > > > > > > 2. Shell out from the master > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we have a good answer to (0), and I don't think > > > it's > > > > > even > > > > > > > > worth the effort of trying to build something when MR is > > already > > > > > there, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > being used by HBase already for some operations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On (1), we have to deal with a myriad of issues - HA of the > > > server > > > > > not > > > > > > > > being the least of them all. Security (kerberos > authentication, > > > > > another > > > > > > > > keytab to manage, etc. etc. etc.). IMO, that approach is DOA. > > > > Instead > > > > > > > let's > > > > > > > > substitute that (1) with the HBase Master. I haven't seen any > > > good > > > > > > reason > > > > > > > > why the HBase master shouldn't launch MR jobs if needed. It's > > not > > > > > > ideal; > > > > > > > > agreed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now before going to (2), let's see what are the benefits of > > > running > > > > > the > > > > > > > > backup/restore jobs from the master. I think Ted has > summarized > > > > some > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > issues that we need to take care of - basically, the master > can > > > > keep > > > > > > > track > > > > > > > > of running jobs, and should it fail, the backup master can > > > continue > > > > > > > keeping > > > > > > > > track of it (since the jobId would have been recorded in the > > proc > > > > > WAL). > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > master can also do cleanup, etc. of failed backup/restore > > > > processes. > > > > > > > > Security is another issue - the job needs to run as 'hbase' > > since > > > > it > > > > > > owns > > > > > > > > the data. Having the master launch the job makes it get that > > > > > privilege. > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > the (2) approach, it's hard to do some of the above > management. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys, just to reiterate, the patch as such is ready from the > > > > overall > > > > > > > > design/arch point of view (maybe code review is still pending > > > from > > > > > > > Matteo). > > > > > > > > If in the future, we find better ways of doing this without > > using > > > > MR, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > can certainly consider that. But IMO don't think we should > > block > > > > this > > > > > > > patch > > > > > > > > from getting merged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: 张铎 <palomino...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 8:32 PM > > > > > > > > To: dev@hbase.apache.org > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] MR jobs started by Master or RS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what about a standalone service other than master? You can > > use > > > > > your > > > > > > > own > > > > > > > > procedure store in that service? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2016-09-23 11:28 GMT+08:00 Ted Yu <yuzhih...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An earlier implementation was client driven. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But with that approach, it is hard to resume if there is > > error > > > > > > midway. > > > > > > > > > Using Procedure V2 makes the backup / restore more robust. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another consideration is for security. It is hard to > enforce > > > > > security > > > > > > > (to > > > > > > > > > be implemented) for client driven actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 22, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Andrew Purtell < > > > > > > > andrew.purt...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, this misses Matteo's finer point, which is "shelling > > out" > > > > > from > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > master directly to run MR is a first. Why not drive this > > with a > > > > > > utility > > > > > > > > > derived from Tool? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 22, 2016, at 7:57 PM, Vladimir Rodionov < > > > > > > > vladrodio...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> In our production cluster, it is a common case we > just > > > have > > > > > > HDFS > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >>>> HBase deployed. > > > > > > > > > >>>> If our Master/RS depend on MR framework (especially > some > > > > > > features > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > >>>> have not used at all), it introduced another cost for > > > > > maintain. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > >>>> don't think it is a good idea. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> So , you are not backup users in this case. Many our > > > customers > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > full > > > > > > > > > >> stack deployed and > > > > > > > > > >> want see backup to be a standard feature. Besides this, > > > > nothing > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > happen > > > > > > > > > >> in your cluster > > > > > > > > > >> if you won't be doing backups. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> This discussion (we do not want see M/R dependency) goes > > to > > > > > > nowhere. > > > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > > >> asked already, at least twice, to suggest another > > framework > > > > > (other > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > M/R) > > > > > > > > > >> for bulk data copy with *conversion*. Still waiting for > > > > > > suggestions. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> -Vlad > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Ted Yu < > > > yuzhih...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> If MR framework is not deployed in the cluster, hbase > > still > > > > > > > functions > > > > > > > > > >>> normally (post merge). > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> In terms of build time dependency, we have long been > > > > depending > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > >>> mapreduce. Take a look at ExportSnapshot. > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Cheers > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Heng Chen < > > > > > > > heng.chen.1...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> In our production cluster, it is a common case we > just > > > have > > > > > > HDFS > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >>>> HBase deployed. > > > > > > > > > >>>> If our Master/RS depend on MR framework (especially > some > > > > > > features > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > >>>> have not used at all), it introduced another cost for > > > > > maintain. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > >>>> don't think it is a good idea. > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> 2016-09-23 10:28 GMT+08:00 张铎 <palomino...@gmail.com > >: > > > > > > > > > >>>>> To be specific, for example, our nice Backup/Restore > > > > feature, > > > > > > if > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > >>> think > > > > > > > > > >>>>> this is not a core feature of HBase, then we could > make > > > it > > > > > > depend > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > >>> MR, > > > > > > > > > >>>>> and start a standalone BackupManager instance that > > > submits > > > > MR > > > > > > > jobs > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > >>> do > > > > > > > > > >>>>> periodical maintenance job. And if we think this is a > > > core > > > > > > > feature > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > >>>>> everyone should use it, then we'd better implement it > > > > without > > > > > > MR > > > > > > > > > >>>>> dependency, like DLS. > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks. > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>> 2016-09-23 10:11 GMT+08:00 张铎 <palomino...@gmail.com > >: > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I‘m -1 on let master or rs launch MR jobs. It is OK > > that > > > > > some > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> features depend on MR but I think the bottom line is > > > that > > > > we > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > >>>> launch > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> the jobs from outside manually or by other services. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> 2016-09-23 9:47 GMT+08:00 Andrew Purtell < > > > > > > > > andrew.purt...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Ok, got it. Well "shelling out" is on the line I > > think, > > > > so > > > > > a > > > > > > > fair > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> question. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Can this be driven by a utility derived from Tool > > like > > > > our > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > MR > > > > > > > > > >>>> apps? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> The issue is needing the AccessController to decide > > if > > > > > > allowed? > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > >>>> nothing > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> prevents the user from running the job > > > > > > manually/independently, > > > > > > > > > right? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Matteo Bertozzi < > > > > > > > > > >>>> theo.berto...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> just a remark. my query was not about tools using > MR > > > > > > > (everyone i > > > > > > > > > >>>> think > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> is > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> ok with those). > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> the topic was about: "are we ok with running MR > jobs > > > > from > > > > > > > Master > > > > > > > > > >>> and > > > > > > > > > >>>> RSs > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> code?" since this will be the first time we do > this > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Matteo > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 2:49 PM, Devaraj Das < > > > > > > > > > >>> d...@hortonworks.com> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Very much agree; for tools like ExportSnapshot / > > > > Backup / > > > > > > > > > Restore, > > > > > > > > > >>>> it's > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> fine to be dependent on MR. MR is the right > > framework > > > > for > > > > > > > such. > > > > > > > > > We > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> should > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> also do compactions using MR (just saying :) ) > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> ________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> From: Ted Yu <yuzhih...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2016 2:00 PM > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> To: dev@hbase.apache.org > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] MR jobs started by > Master > > > or > > > > RS > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> I agree - backup / restore is in the same > category > > as > > > > > > import > > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > >>>> export. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Andrew Purtell < > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> andrew.purt...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Backup is extra tooling around core in my > opinion. > > > > Like > > > > > > > import > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> export. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Or the optional MOB tool. It's fine. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 22, 2016, at 1:50 PM, Matteo Bertozzi < > > > > > > > > > >>>> mberto...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> What's the latest opinion around running MR > jobs > > > from > > > > > > hbase > > > > > > > > > >>>> (Master > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> or > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> RS)? > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I remember in the past that there was > discussion > > > > about > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > >>> having > > > > > > > > > >>>> MR > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> has > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> direct dependency of hbase. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I think some of discussion where around MOB > that > > > had > > > > a > > > > > MR > > > > > > > job > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> compact, > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> that later was transformed in a non-MR job to > be > > > > > merged, > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > > >>>> we > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> had a > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> similar discussion for log split/replay. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the latest is the new Backup feature > > (HBASE-7912), > > > > that > > > > > > > runs > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > >>> MR > > > > > > > > > >>>> job > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> from > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> the master to copy data or restore data. > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> (backup is also "not really core" as in.. if > you > > > > don't > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > >>> backup > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> you'll > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> not end up running MR jobs, but this was > probably > > > > true > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > MOB > > > > > > > > > >>> as > > > > > > > > > >>>> in > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> "if > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> you don't enable MOB you don't need MR") > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> any thoughts? do we a rule that says "we don't > > want > > > > to > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > >>> hbase > > > > > > > > > >>>> run > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> MR > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> jobs, only tool started manually by the user > can > > do > > > > > > that". > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > >>> can > > > > > > > > > >>>> we > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>> start > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> adding MR calls around without problems? > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
