Sounds good, Matt. #2 is the important one: try to drive discussions onto dev@. You won't always succeed - discussions have a habit of just springing up - but do your best.
Julian On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 3:23 AM Matt Casters <[email protected]> wrote: > You are actually our champion Max, thanks for helping out :-) > > I was just looking to see what the problems could possibly be to then > address those. > I'll remind our mentors that we've followed their advice in 100% of the > cases so far, also on this topic. All in all I think things are going > great. > > So yes, I'm not against the idea of writing a resume if things get heated > on the dev channel. That being said, devs have started conversations here > lately and major re-architectures are expected to die down a bit now. The > architecture of Hop is such that most of the action happens in the plugins, > not in the core. > > So here is my multi-layered approach proposal: > 1) Accept Saurabh's proposal to help out with writing a weekly summary > 2) Continue to drive important discussions out of the #dev chat channel > over here to the dev@ mailing list > 3) Continue to think of ways to promote participation with swag but not for > this purpose > 4) Wrap up the work on the lurking @archivebot in the #dev channel to make > all chats publically and freely available. > > Unless anyone has any major concerns we'll continue along these lines. > > Cheers, > Matt > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 12:07 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Circling back here. I was skeptical about this idea, just because I > > haven't seen such ideas working unless people get paid for it. Creating > > a weekly summary is work, more work on top of the voluntary work we do > > here. > > > > Perhaps an automatically generated weekly email to the mailing list > > containing all the messages of the dev chat for that week would work > > better. Could that be accomplished easily? > > > > I'm still thinking it would make sense to move all dev communication to > > the mailing list. I'm not here to decide that though, I'm just a mentor > :) > > > > -Max > > > > On 11.01.21 19:23, Saurabh Deshmukh wrote: > > > Hi Matt, > > > > > > Thumbs up! I will be able to help you in creating weekly status emails. > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 5:52 PM Matt Casters <[email protected] > > .invalid> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Alright so here's an idea: why don't we create a weekly status mail > > about > > >> those things discussed on the chat server that are even a little bit > > >> important. > > >> It allows us to review what's important while providing the > opportunity > > to > > >> ask folks to post their topics to this mailing list. > > >> In the short term it creates an archive and in the longer run we can > > >> bootstrap this mailing list. > > >> > > >> We can ask for volunteers but I'd be happy to do it first. > > >> > > >> Thoughts? > > >> > > >> Matt > > >> > > >> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 4:11 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> I don't think anything is stopping the community from posting to the > > >>> mailing list. They just have to start doing it more. That's why we > are > > >>> having this discussion. > > >>> > > >>> Part of the incubation process is to align the project with the ASF. > > >>> This comes with some limitation of freedom. If maximum freedom is > > >>> desired, the ASF is not the ideal place to be, although the ASF does > > >>> permit a fair amount of freedom in return for a great community, > > >>> infrastructure, and legislative support. > > >>> > > >>> I'd be skeptical about any kind of compensation for posting to the > > >>> mailing list. However, I think it is important to keep track of merit > > >>> (which could be posts to the mailing list), such that we can add as > > many > > >>> new committers as possible. > > >>> > > >>> -Max > > >>> > > >>> On 11.01.21 13:43, Matt Casters wrote: > > >>>> I'm just trying to get to the heart of the issue here Max. I don't > > >>>> necessarily disagree as stated earlier. > > >>>> Once we have a list of concerns and things that prevent folks from > > >>> joining > > >>>> and/or posting on dev we can do something about it. > > >>>> As was mentioned earlier this is not something singularly affecting > > Hop > > >>> so > > >>>> I'm sure we can learn from other projects as well. > > >>>> > > >>>> Before we go there, let's pile on a bit more since it seems to me > that > > >>> this > > >>>> is treated as a major concern and I think the Hop devs see it as > such. > > >>>> My impression is that the ASF, and as a consequence dev mailing > lists > > >> as > > >>>> well, are seen as a Very Big Thing and that folks are in general > quite > > >>>> reluctant, even afraid, to post something. > > >>>> I think this especially is painful and diametrically opposed to > > >> building > > >>>> great software where insights come around in an iterative fashion. > > >>>> > > >>>> So again, I'd be very interested in hearing from our mentors how we > > can > > >>>> alleviate this so that we can have more lively discussions on dev. > > >>>> I'm thinking along the lines of rewarding participation with swag > and > > >> so > > >>>> on. We're not Google but we're not completely poor sods either are > we > > >>> :-) > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks, > > >>>> Matt > > >>>> > > >>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 12:36 PM Maximilian Michels <[email protected] > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> The core problem is fragmentation. I would follow Hop development > > more > > >>>>> closely if I wouldn't have to monitor yet another chat client. > Having > > >>>>> one source of truth, is what we should strive for. Again, this > > doesn't > > >>>>> mean getting rid of the chat but all design discussions should live > > on > > >>>>> the dev mailing list. Alternatively, a summary could be posted. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Mailing lists and chats are two mediums. Generally, I find that the > > >>>>> mailing lists are better suited for archival because more thinking > > >> goes > > >>>>> into the writing. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything in > > >> the > > >>>>> Apache mailing list archives. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> @Matt I'm not sure which service you used to search the mailing > list > > >> but > > >>>>> from my experience, > > >>>>> https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] works quite > > >> well. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -Max > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 11.01.21 11:08, Matt Casters wrote: > > >>>>>> Again, nobody is disagreeing in principle. However, I personally > > >> don't > > >>>>>> think this is as black and white is being stated by the mentors. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> First off, Julian made it seem like we're using some sort of > locked > > >>> down > > >>>>>> medium for the chat. Let me state here on the record that the > > >>> Mattermost > > >>>>>> server is open source and that we don't have any limits on the > > >>> discussion > > >>>>>> archive. It's as such quite different from free Slack > > functionality. > > >>>>>> For all practical intents and purposes we are actually archiving > > >>>>>> everything. It's easy to get on the system without limitations. > > It's > > >>>>> also > > >>>>>> very easy to find something by using the search functions. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On the other hand I found it surprisingly hard to find anything in > > >> the > > >>>>>> Apache mailing list archives. Perhaps these need a software > update > > >> as > > >>>>> well? > > >>>>>> I just think that the gap between both is too wide. Imagine > having > > a > > >>>>>> "discussion" on look & feel, images and so on on the dev mailing > > >>> list? I > > >>>>>> can tell you right away it's just not practical no matter who > wants > > >> to > > >>>>>> decide what on the topic. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Furthermore, now that you have me going on this tangent... the > > >> concerns > > >>>>>> that are being raised by ASF surely cover major decisions and not > > >>>>>> day-to-day small trivia? Who on Earth is going to argue about > minor > > >>>>> details > > >>>>>> of any project? We trust people to commit to the source code but > we > > >>>>>> somehow need to somehow see everything that was said and only via > a > > >>>>> mailing > > >>>>>> list? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Anyway, we'll do our best. I've reminded everyone to subscribe to > > >> this > > >>>>>> mailing list. > > >>>>>> The name of the chat server was changed to Apache Hop. > > >>>>>> We're looking into creating an archive for all chat channels. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Matt > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 10:12 PM Julian Hyde < > > [email protected] > > >>> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Yes, chat is excellent for discussions. That’s actually the > > problem. > > >>>>>>> Discussions (and therefore decisions) will naturally happen on > > chat. > > >>>>> It’s > > >>>>>>> great for people who happen to be on chat, but people who are not > > on > > >>>>> chat > > >>>>>>> will be excluded. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> So, we need to make a conscious effort to move discussions off of > > >> chat > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>>> onto dev@ if they look likely to result in a decision. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I’m not saying we should ban chat. Just be careful how chat is > > used. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> By the way, a lot of Apache communities face this or similar > > >> problems. > > >>>>> For > > >>>>>>> example, I know of one or two projects that started in China and > > >> have > > >>> a > > >>>>>>> strong temptation to use Chinese, which is efficient for them but > > >>> makes > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>>> rest of us feel excluded. It’s difficult for those projects to > grow > > >>>>> beyond > > >>>>>>> their original country. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The other suggestions in my email were to create a public, > > read-only > > >>>>>>> archive of chat so that people can see what has been happening, > and > > >> to > > >>>>> more > > >>>>>>> strongly encourage people to join the dev list, not just chat. I > > >> think > > >>>>> it > > >>>>>>> is important that we do those. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Julian > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2021, at 1:54 PM, Matt Casters < > [email protected] > > >>>>> .INVALID> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I don't disagree with Julian but for that specific example I > > indeed > > >>>>>>>> mentioned this first on dev when I stated how I felt about how > > >>>>> important > > >>>>>>>> these integration tests are ... to me. > > >>>>>>>> I'm not sure it warrants a specific discussion since the devs > seem > > >> to > > >>>>> be > > >>>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>> the same wavelength on the subject. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Where I do disagree is that chat is excellent for discussions > and > > >>>>>>> throwing > > >>>>>>>> ideas against the wall to see if they stick. > > >>>>>>>> The way we typically seem to do it is to just ping an idea back > > and > > >>>>> forth > > >>>>>>>> and throw it in JIRA in some form. > > >>>>>>>> These cases indeed are always visible and remembered more easily > > >> than > > >>>>> on > > >>>>>>>> chats or mailing lists. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 10:24 PM Julian Hyde <[email protected]> > > >>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I am a bit concerned about Hop's use of Chat. To be clear, > Apache > > >>>>>>>>> projects use chat rooms (e.g. Slack, IRC) and they are a good > way > > >> to > > >>>>>>>>> get questions answered quickly and to build a sense of > community. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> First, I am concerned about the lack of a public archive. > People > > >> who > > >>>>>>>>> want to read the chat have to first sign up. (Hopefully, I am > > >>>>>>>>> mistaken. If so, please post a link to the archive on the > site.) > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Second, let's fix the branding on Chat. Currently it is under > the > > >>>>>>>>> project-hop.org domain, and the project is called 'hop'. No > > >>> 'apache' > > >>>>>>>>> in sight. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Third, at Apache we have a rule 'if it doesn't happen on dev it > > >>> didn't > > >>>>>>>>> happen', i.e. don't make decisions off the mailing list. The > > >>>>>>>>> conversation on chat is generally pretty benign, but I saw one > > >>>>>>>>> exception: this one from Matt Casters: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I would like to set a goal of having a substantial set of > > >>> integration > > >>>>>>>>> tests > > >>>>>>>>>> for 1.0. The bare minimum seems to be all the popular most > often > > >>> used > > >>>>>>>>>> transforms and actions. I know that this far exceeds what P5o > > and > > >>>>>>>>>> Kettle had but stability is really important. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> That discussion should have been on the dev list. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Last, according to the latest incubator report [1], a lot more > > >>> people > > >>>>>>>>> are signed up for chat than for the dev list (122 vs 22). I am > > >>>>>>>>> concerned that, with such a disparity in membership, Chat will > > >>> become > > >>>>>>>>> the de facto place that people discuss important matters. I > think > > >>> the > > >>>>>>>>> solution is to increase the number of people on the dev list, > and > > >> to > > >>>>>>>>> continue to drive significant discussions onto off of Chat and > > >> onto > > >>>>>>>>> dev@. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Julian > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> [1] > > >>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/INCUBATOR/January2021 > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Neo4j Chief Solutions Architect > *✉ *[email protected] > ☎ +32486972937 >
