Hi: I think one thing missing in the discussion is that, if the iceberg community wants to maintain a rest catalog service, what's the target use case? Different target use cases may lead to different directions.
If it's mainly designed for first time users to play or experience with rest catalog, then maybe we just need a submodule in java repo or a test-jar would be enough. If it's targeted toward production usage, things get complicated. There are too many things to think about, such as using different storage backend, monitoring, ha, scalability etc. What's more, in an enterprise iceberg rest catalog usually is only part of a data platform, there are many other things involved. In this case, I'm skeptical about the actual value of a rest catalog server, and a spec or a library would be more valuable. On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 3:49 PM Jean-Baptiste Onofré <j...@nanthrax.net> wrote: > Hi Fokko > > If service means the actual runtime service, I partially agree. > > I would love to see REST Catalog API the "central cornerstone" used in > iceberg-java, pyiceberg, etc. So I think we should provide the > resources for an user to bootstrap a REST Catalog ref impl. > A lot of Apache projects provides both specs and runtime (for some > part): Apache Camel, Apache ActiveMQ, Apache Karaf, Apache Kafka, ... > That's why it would make sense to have it in a separate Iceberg repo > (iceberg-catalog) to keep iceberg main repo focus on spec. > Iceberg would need both spec and simple runtime for ref impl. It would > be a bit "hypocrite" (to our users :)) to say we have the spec but not > impl. It's like you have Iceberg spec but no Spark or Flink > extensions. > Imagine Apache ActiveMQ says we have JMS 3.0 support but no > runtime/service :) > > That's my $0.02, but if we want to promote the REST Catalog (and I > think it's a good approach), then Iceberg should provide a ref impl > ready to run (without preventing other impl of course). > > Regards > JB > > > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 8:13 AM Fokko Driesprong <fo...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > Hey everyone, > > > > Thanks for raising this. I think a test-jar would be a great first step. > > > > We already maintain "service" considering JDBC, Hive, etc catalogs. REST > Catalog ref impl in Iceberg would be the sam. > > > > > > What I think Ryan means by a service is having to maintain Postgres > (JDBC backend), Hive Metastore (Hive backend), etc. There is a lot to it to > properly scale these backends. > > > > For PyIceberg we decided to build the examples backed by the SqlCatalog. > This can be both in memory or on a local dist (sqlite), of course, it has > limited parallelism, but makes it easy to give Iceberg a try. One of the > main motivations for doing it this way was that it doesn't require any > additional services. Running additional services would require having > JRE/Docker/etc being installed and potentially also an RDBMS backend to > persist the data. > > > > Kind regards, > > Fokko > > > > > > Op vr 1 mrt 2024 om 07:34 schreef Jean-Baptiste Onofré <j...@nanthrax.net > >: > >> > >> Hi Ryan > >> > >> If we plan to reduce the number of catalogs (and I think it makes > >> sense and I'm with you on that), we will need a impl/service in > >> Iceberg for the REST Catalog API, else the users won't be able to use > >> Iceberg "out of the box". > >> We already maintain "service" considering JDBC, Hive, etc catalogs. > >> REST Catalog ref impl in Iceberg would be the sam. > >> > >> So, in order to promote the REST Catalog API as the Catalog "unique" > >> façade for Iceberg, I would be in favor of having a simple REST > >> service in Iceberg. > >> It would be the entry point for Iceberg users and they can use other > >> REST catalogs depending on their needs (Gravitno, Tabular, ...). > >> > >> Regards > >> JB > >> > >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2024 at 1:28 AM Ryan Blue <b...@tabular.io> wrote: > >> > > >> > There is a reference implementation in the project, in the > CatalogHandlers class. That implements REST requests using a catalog and > returns REST responses. I believe this is what Gravatno relies on and I > mentioned it above in the discussion about whether we should have a catalog > service. > >> > > >> > Catalog tests also use catalog handlers, but use a simple HTTP > wrapper to test the HTTP client. There is also a test class that accepts > HTTP calls directly and also runs JSON serialization on requests and > responses. > >> > > >> > So far, the Iceberg community has avoided maintaining a service. That > brings in a lot of complications. So far, we’ve preferred to remain focused > on providing a library that can be used to wire up something like a REST > catalog, but not provide a runtime service. > >> > > >> > Ryan > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 2:59 AM Jean-Baptiste Onofré <j...@nanthrax.net> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Hi Ajantha, > >> >> > >> >> Thanks for sharing your thoughts. > >> >> > >> >> It makes sense for Gravitino to be a TLP (after the incubation > period) > >> >> because Gravitino is "more" than an Iceberg catalog. It implements > the > >> >> Iceberg REST Catalog API, but it's also a metadata catalog/repo with > >> >> additional features. > >> >> > >> >> That said, I agree with what you said: > >> >> 1. We have the openapi yaml in the Iceberg project, but no reference > >> >> implementation in the project itself. I think REST Catalog is a good > >> >> approach as a "central" Catalog API because any Iceberg engine/layer > >> >> could use this API (even if written in Python, rust, go, whatever), > >> >> and it allows new use cases (like easily move data from an engine to > >> >> another as the catalog API would be the same). > >> >> 2. From an ASF standpoint, I would not talk about "subproject" but > >> >> more repositories. The reason is because in terms of governance, it's > >> >> still the Iceberg project (PMC member or committer has the same > >> >> permission on all repositories in the Iceberg project, it's not > >> >> possible to have a committer only on iceberg-rust for instance. > >> >> Generally speaking, we should limit the number of subprojects. > >> >> 3. I think it would be fair to have REST Catalog resources (openapi > >> >> yaml + a ref impl) in a iceberg-catalog repository. > >> >> 4. However, It's important to have a more global discussion within > the > >> >> community about Iceberg 2.0 and the roadmap about catalogs: do we > >> >> deprecate Iceberg Java Catalog API in favor of the REST Catalog API ? > >> >> What do we do with the existing catalogs ? etc. I think it's a fair > >> >> discussion to have for Iceberg 2.0. > >> >> > >> >> It's an important discussion, community driven. > >> >> > >> >> Regards > >> >> JB > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024 at 9:44 AM Ajantha Bhat <ajanthab...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > I apologize for the delay in responding. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'm pleased to see the development of an open-source REST catalog > implementation, and the potential transition of Gravitino to an ASF project > is certainly promising. > >> >> > But REST catalog server implementation will be a small part of > Gravitino ASF project. Which has many other things along with the catalog? > >> >> > > >> >> > While I understand Iceberg's focus on the table format > specification and its implementation, > >> >> > I would like to propose the creation of a sub-project for the REST > catalog server implementation under the Iceberg repository (similar to > pyiceberg, iceberg-rust, etc.). > >> >> > This suggestion is based on several reasons: > >> >> > > >> >> > Everytime we make a change to the REST spec, there is no reference > implementation to refer to or modify it. > >> >> > Many companies such as AWS, Apple, Tabular, and Datastrato are > each implementing their own REST servers. > >> >> > Consolidating efforts within a sub-project could lead to > efficiency gains and potential collaboration opportunities. > >> >> > From the perspective of open-source users, the absence of an > open-source implementation for the REST catalog within Iceberg may be > inconvenient or frustrating. > >> >> > > >> >> > I believe creating a dedicated sub-project would address these > concerns and enhance the overall usability and collaborative nature of the > Iceberg ecosystem. > >> >> > I also think we can have a sub-project for kafka-connect and > iceberg tools (delta converter, catalog migrator etc) as they need not have > to depend on the Iceberg release cycle > >> >> > and they are independent of table format spec. > >> >> > > >> >> > Let me know your thoughts on this. I can open a separate thread > for discussion if required. > >> >> > > >> >> > - Ajantha > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 5:32 AM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> +1 for using test-jar! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -Jack > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 10:48 AM Ryan Blue <b...@tabular.io> > wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> I think I'd be fine exposing this through a test Jar, but it > seems to me that if we were to put it into a normal package it would turn > into the situation we want to avoid. People would use it for unintended > purposes and it would become a distraction. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> What do you think about using the tests Jar for this? > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:48 PM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Yes, sorry I did not make it clear, I also agree it is not the > right direction to invest a lot of community effort. I am more talking > about casual use cases like importing a server for unit tests outside > Iceberg, running some local debugging, etc. I think it would be valuable to > provide a server in Iceberg for that purpose, and maybe vend it as test > utils. Thoughts? > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> -Jack > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:35 AM Ryan Blue <b...@tabular.io> > wrote: > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> > I know we have the RESTCatalogAdapter and RESTCatalogSevlet > for unit tests, and technically we have a very similar Jetty server > implementation in TestRESTCatalog. Should we think about making those > components out of the tests into an iceberg-rest-server module for this use > case, and merge with the implementation that Gravitino has? > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> I think that this would take the Iceberg project in the wrong > direction. Iceberg has always been a library and I think it should continue > to be. Concerns about runtime should be left to other projects that need to > fit into existing infrastructure or skillsets of people maintaining them. > The question of whether to use Jetty or Tomcat or whatever else is a > serious consideration, as is how to monitor that application and send > metrics. I think it would slow down the core purpose of Iceberg if we got > distracted by these things. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> In fact, I think that this project shows that the library is > getting the balance right: it is using `CatalogHandlers` for their intended > purpose. It has opinions about how to run the actual HTTP service and > people that agree can use it. Other people could use `CatalogHandlers` to > build on a different foundation. > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:13 AM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> Really cool project! > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> I browsed a bit of the codebase, and see this implementation > of the REST service backend: > >> >> >>>>>> - > https://github.com/datastrato/gravitino/blob/main/catalogs/catalog-lakehouse-iceberg/src/main/java/com/datastrato/gravitino/catalog/lakehouse/iceberg/IcebergRESTService.java#L39 > >> >> >>>>>> - > https://github.com/datastrato/gravitino/blob/main/catalogs/catalog-lakehouse-iceberg/src/main/java/com/datastrato/gravitino/catalog/lakehouse/iceberg/ops/IcebergTableOps.java#L42-L51 > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> Looks like it is initializing a Jetty server that uses > CatalogHandlers to delegate the execution to a specific Java Catalog > implementation. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> I think this is actually something that is lacking today in > Iceberg, which is an easy way for users to start an actual REST HTTP server. > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> I know we have the RESTCatalogAdapter and RESTCatalogSevlet > for unit tests, and technically we have a very similar Jetty server > implementation in TestRESTCatalog. Should we think about making those > components out of the tests into an iceberg-rest-server module for this use > case, and merge with the implementation that Gravitino has? > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> Best, > >> >> >>>>>> Jack Ye > >> >> >>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 10:47 AM Yufei Gu < > flyrain...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> Thanks Justin for the sharing. > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> It's pretty cool to see an open source REST catalog > implementation in action. Having dabbled a bit in the early development of > Gravitino myself, I'm really excited about its potential with the Iceberg > REST catalog. > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> The idea of Gravitino moving to an ASF project is promising. > It’ll surely boost its visibility and open up more doors for collaboration > and adoption. > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> Looking forward to where this goes. Keep up the fantastic > work! > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> Yufei > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 5:55 AM Jean-Baptiste Onofré < > j...@nanthrax.net> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Justin, > >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> I talked with Junping a couple of months ago about > Gravitino. Thanks > >> >> >>>>>>>> for sharing ! > >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> Regards > >> >> >>>>>>>> JB > >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 12:15 AM Justin Mclean < > jus...@classsoftware.com> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >> >>>>>>>> > Hi, > >> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >> >>>>>>>> > We open-sourced a new project, Gravitino, in December and > have been working on growing the community and adding new functionality. We > plan to donate the project to the ASF this year. Gravitino is a unified > metadata lake solution offering a unified approach to managing datasets > from diverse sources and regions across multiple cloud platforms. Its core > is an Iceberg REST catalog service implementation to manage Iceberg tables > efficiently. > >> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >> >>>>>>>> > If this sounds like something you would be interested in, > then the following resources will help: > >> >> >>>>>>>> > - Blog post: > https://datastrato.ai/blog/gravitino-iceberg-rest-catalog-service/ > >> >> >>>>>>>> > - Gravitino documentation: > https://datastrato.ai/docs/0.3.1/ > >> >> >>>>>>>> > - Iceberg REST service documentation: > https://datastrato.ai/docs/0.3.1/iceberg-rest-service > >> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >> >>>>>>>> > We welcome any feedback and suggestions you have, and as > always, all contributions are welcome. You can find the source code at > https://github.com/datastrato/gravitino. > >> >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >> >>>>>>>> > Kind Regards, > >> >> >>>>>>>> > Justin > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> > >> >> >>>>> -- > >> >> >>>>> Ryan Blue > >> >> >>>>> Tabular > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> Ryan Blue > >> >> >>> Tabular > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Ryan Blue > >> > Tabular >
