Ivan, There is no argument here, I see what you mean. All we know is that Optane is a new class of a storage device that is slower than RAM but faster than disk. Plus, it's denser than RAM, and non-volatile that let us store many-more terabytes of data on a single machine that can be accessed via the memory bus and don't worry about data preloading upon restarts. So, there definitely will be a benefit for certain use cases once Optane is supported natively - much more data can be stored and accessed locally at (almost) speed of RAM.
The current integration is not finished yet (based on the review) but once we get hardware, agree, that the benchmarks can be executed even over what was developed so far. - Denis On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 10:44 PM Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Denis, > > I suppose we are using not optimal strategy here. And motivation is simple: > 1. Code review is "expensive", benchmarking (usually) are "cheap". > 2. Code review is "subjective", benchmarking are "objective". > > And my personal opinion here is that there could be a performance win > with Optane in proposed implementation in particular cases. It depends > on how much slower is Optane performance comparing to RAM. But we do > not know it. > > ср, 16 окт. 2019 г. в 01:10, Denis Magda <dma...@apache.org>: > > > > Alex, thanks for an extensive summary and proposing different > > implementation trails. Presently, the JEP-352 approach seems the most > > reasonable - JDK folks will take care of the integration and will be > > testing/maintaining the feature going forward, while the Ignite community > > will reuse what JDK provides. However, let's see what Eric and Mulugeta > of > > Intel (both copied) think about this and other approaches. > > > > Ivan, I'm not sure if any performance testing was done for the given > > pull-request. Anyway, it might be premature considering Alex's summary. > > > > - > > Denis > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 11:50 PM Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > By the way, did we have a change to run some existing benchmarks > > > against proposed implementation? > > > > > > пт, 11 окт. 2019 г. в 17:49, Alexey Goncharuk < > alexey.goncha...@gmail.com > > > >: > > > > > > > > Hello Mulugeta, Igniters. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your interest and efforts in integrating the persistent > memory > > > > to Ignite. Here are my thoughts on the PR: > > > > > > > > First of all I was questioning whether we want to use the integration > > > with > > > > the pmem library via JNI. Java 14 will have native support for NVME > via > > > > native mapped byte buffers [1] since the corresponding tickets are > > > already > > > > resolved [2],[3]. The suggested integration uses JNI calls quite > often > > > (if > > > > I read the PR right, there will be tens of JNI calls per a single > > > > operation), which may and most likely will undermine the benefits of > > > using > > > > PM. On the other hand, there is a PoC/project [4] which successfully > > > > demonstrates how the new integration can be used to natively access > > > > persistent memory from Java. Additionally, new Unsafe have several > > > > performance issues - each put* methods has a map lookup, and CAS > method > > > > uses a global lock. Removing these issues will change the PR and > > > > architecture dramatically. > > > > > > > > Other than performance and an extra library dependency, there are > > > > additional reasons to use custom implementation of PM persistence > > > > primitives: > > > > > > > > - Ignite significantly benefits from having WAL as a single point > of > > > > data for both failure recovery and historical rebalance. As far > as I > > > can > > > > guess, the suggested library also uses some sort of journaling in > > > order to > > > > support crash recovery. Since we do not want give up on the > historical > > > > rebalance, we would need to write an additional journal, which > then > > > raises > > > > a question of how to transact between this journal. > > > > - Ignite is supposed to work with large indexes, a I not aware how > > > LLPL > > > > handles them. Several researches [5],[6] show that since PM > memory has > > > > larger access latency than regular RAM, it is beneficial to buffer > > > index > > > > pages in regular memory and store leaf pages in PM. There is a > generic > > > > approach to convert in-memory indexes to PM ones [7], I think it > makes > > > > sense to investigate whether our existing indexes can be > converted to > > > PM. > > > > - There is an active IEP which is targeted for a file-based > > > rebalancing. > > > > In the suggested implementation this optimization would not work. > A > > > better > > > > integration should allow to take a snapshot of a partition and > > > transfer it > > > > to another node for fast rebalancing. > > > > > > > > Overall, I think we may take the following path: > > > > > > > > - Target JEP352 APIs; for now keep using the whole region msync > for > > > flush > > > > - Introduce PM-based isolated components to support WAL iterator > and > > > > transaction management. We can start with WAL, then implement a > > > PM-based > > > > index based on current research, then a tuple heap with free space > > > > management. Each of the components may be developed and tested > > > independently > > > > - Do Ignite internals refactoring to properly abstract storage > layer > > > > from transactions/communication. Currently, there is an > abstraction > > > leak in > > > > the storage layer, which makes it aware of particular Ignite > > > implementation > > > > details (Binary Objects, partition eviction, etc) > > > > - Once the storage is separated, we should be able to plug the new > > > > components instead of the "classical" ones > > > > > > > > WDYT? I believe we should create a detailed IEP with concrete > proposals > > > on > > > > both PM structures design and Ignite internals changes before making > any > > > > further code changes. > > > > > > > > [1] https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/352 > > > > [2] https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8221397 > > > > [3] https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8221696 > > > > [4] https://github.com/jhalliday/mashona > > > > [5] > https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/fast17/fast17-lee.pdf > > > > [6] http://www.vldb.org/pvldb/vol8/p786-chen.pdf > > > > [7] https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~vijay/papers/sosp19-recipe.pdf > > > > [8] > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/IEP-16%3A+Optimization+of+rebalancing > > > > > > > > вт, 8 окт. 2019 г. в 08:15, Alexey Goncharuk < > alexey.goncha...@gmail.com > > > >: > > > > > > > > > Igniters, > > > > > > > > > > I would like to resurrect this discussion and will review the > change > > > again > > > > > shortly. If anyone want to join the review - you are welcome! > > > > > > > > > > ср, 22 авг. 2018 г. в 18:49, Denis Magda <dma...@apache.org>: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Dmitry, > > > > >> > > > > >> That's a BSD-3-Clause license if to believe this statement > > > > >> "SPDX-License-Identifier: BSD-3-Clause": > > > > >> https://github.com/pmem/llpl/blob/master/LICENSE > > > > >> > > > > >> This license can be used with ASF software: > > > > >> https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-a > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Denis > > > > >> > > > > >> On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 9:28 AM Dmitriy Pavlov < > dpavlov....@gmail.com > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > Hi Denis, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Could you please double check if we can refer to any library > > > licensed to > > > > >> > Intel. Can we develop code only version of this support (without > > > > >> shipping > > > > >> > it in release)? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > https://github.com/apache/ignite/pull/4381 is quite huge > change, > > > > >> > including 128 files changed, patch review will require resources > > > from > > > > >> > community members to review. I would like to be sure we can > include > > > this > > > > >> > patch from the legal point of view. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Sincerely, > > > > >> > Dmitriy Pavlov > > > > >> > > > > > >> > пт, 3 авг. 2018 г. в 19:23, Dmitriy Pavlov < > dpavlov....@gmail.com>: > > > > >> > > > > > >> >> Hi Mulugeta, > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> I appologise, I've missed that license is already there. So I > > > guess it > > > > >> is > > > > >> >> not standard open-source license, it is seems it is not listed > in > > > > >> >> https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-a > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> So there can be legal concern related to including this lib as > > > > >> dependency > > > > >> >> into Apache product. It should not block review, we can later > > > > >> >> consult Secretary/Legal to find out how we can correctly > include > > > > >> reference > > > > >> >> to lib. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Sincerely, > > > > >> >> Dmitriy Pavlov > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> чт, 2 авг. 2018 г. в 0:24, Mammo, Mulugeta < > > > mulugeta.ma...@intel.com>: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >>> Hi Dmitriy, > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Do you mean our LLPL library? It has a license, please look > here: > > > > >> >>> https://github.com/pmem/llpl > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Regarding the changes made to Ignite, you may refer to the > pull > > > > >> request > > > > >> >>> here: https://github.com/apache/ignite/pull/4381 > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Thanks, > > > > >> >>> Mulugeta > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> >>> From: Dmitriy Pavlov [mailto:dpavlov....@gmail.com] > > > > >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:49 AM > > > > >> >>> To: dev@ignite.apache.org > > > > >> >>> Subject: Re: Adding experimental support for Intel Optane DC > > > > >> Persistent > > > > >> >>> Memory > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Hi Mulugeta Mammo, > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> I've just noticed that repository, what you refer is full > fork of > > > > >> Ignite. > > > > >> >>> How can I see differences with original Ignite? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> One more thing, library which you're referencing seems to not > > > contain > > > > >> >>> license, at least github can not parse it. Apache product has > > > > >> limitations > > > > >> >>> which libraries may be used (see > > > > >> >>> https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-a and > > > > >> >>> https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-b) > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Could you please comment if there is some legal risk? > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> Sincerely, > > > > >> >>> Dmitriy Pavlov > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> ср, 1 авг. 2018 г. в 20:43, Dmitriy Pavlov < > dpavlov....@gmail.com > > > >: > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > Hi, > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > This link works for me > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/IEP-26%3A+Adding+Ex > > > > >> >>> > perimental+Support+for+Intel+Optane+DC+Persistent+Memory > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > Sincerely, > > > > >> >>> > Dmitriy Pavlov > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > чт, 26 июл. 2018 г. в 15:31, Stanislav Lukyanov < > > > > >> >>> stanlukya...@gmail.com>: > > > > >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> >> Ah, ok, it’s just the ‘.’ at the end of the link. Removed > it > > > and > > > > >> it’s > > > > >> >>> >> fine. > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> From: Stanislav Lukyanov > > > > >> >>> >> Sent: 26 июля 2018 г. 15:12 > > > > >> >>> >> To: dev@ignite.apache.org > > > > >> >>> >> Subject: RE: Adding experimental support for Intel Optane > DC > > > > >> >>> >> Persistent Memory > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> Hi, > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> The link you’ve shared gives me 404. > > > > >> >>> >> Perhaps you need to add a permission for everyone to > access the > > > > >> page? > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> Thanks, > > > > >> >>> >> Stan > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> From: Mammo, Mulugeta > > > > >> >>> >> Sent: 26 июля 2018 г. 2:44 > > > > >> >>> >> To: dev@ignite.apache.org > > > > >> >>> >> Subject: Adding experimental support for Intel Optane DC > > > Persistent > > > > >> >>> >> Memory > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> Hi, > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> I have added a new proposal to support Intel Optane DC > > > Persistent > > > > >> >>> >> Memory for Ignite here: > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/Adding+Experimenta > > > > >> >>> >> l+Support+for+Intel+Optane+DC+Persistent+Memory > > > > >> >>> >> . > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> I'm looking forward to your feedback and collaboration on > this. > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> Thanks, > > > > >> >>> >> Mulugeta > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> >> > > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Best regards, > > > Ivan Pavlukhin > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Ivan Pavlukhin >
