On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Subramanya Sastry<sss.li...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > It is good to hear from everyone about common code patterns and what the >> > common scenarios are, and what needs to be targeted. But, the problem >> > often >> > is that ensuring correctness for the 1% (or even 0.1%) uncommon case >> > might >> > effectively block good performance for the 99% common case. The >> > specifics >> > will depend on the specific case being considered. >> >> There's two schools of thought here...one is that we could explicitly >> define the optimization characteristics of the system and say "if you >> do X after point Y, your changes won't be visible to compiled code." >> In the 0.1 or 0.01% cases, this may be acceptable, and perhaps nobody >> will ever be impacted by it. But no matter how small the likelihood, >> we can't claim that our optimizations are 100% non-damaging to normal, >> expected Ruby behavior. Whether we can bend the rules of what is >> "normal" or "expected" is more a political debate than a technical >> one. >> >> The other school of thought is that we must be slavishly 100% >> compatible all the time. I think our lack of an aliasable "eval" >> proves that's not the case; there *are* things that people simply *do >> not do*, and we do not need to always allow them to penalize >> performance. And taking an even stronger position, we can always say >> "this is how JRuby works; it's not compatible, but it's what we needed >> to do to get performance for the 99% case" such as we did with >> un-aliasable "eval". Generally people won't complain, and if they do >> they won't actually be affected by it. > > I probably lean towards the latter. But, insofaras all implementations have > bugs and specs are incomplete, you have some leeway probably. In addition, > I am not sure if there is a solid language spec for Ruby which also leaves > the playing field a bit hazy. > > In that sense, the spec is what is implemented and in the case of Ruby, it > might be whatever is verifiable through RubySpec tests if that is what all > language implementations settle as the de facto standard. So you might be > right in saying that this is JRuby, and not Ruby, and this might be a > political negotiation between various implementations. > > In any case, if (a) expectations of what is unsupported are clear upfront, > and (b) violations of assumptions are detected and flagged in some obvious > fashion rather than failing silently or mysteriously, that might still be > acceptable behavior. > > Ultimately, this might be an academic discussion, but probably worth having > :-) > >> >> There's also another key point Tom constantly reminds me of: the >> majority of Ruby application performance is not lost due to Ruby code >> execution speed, but due to the speed of the core classes. If only 10% >> of system performance relates to Ruby code execution, and we double >> it, we've only gained a measly 5%. But if we double the performance of >> the remaining 90% (presumably core classes), we improve overall perf >> by 45%. It's a much bigger job, of course, but it helps put things in >> perspective. It's probably better for us to be moderately >> underoptimized than to have dismally inefficient core classes, if we >> had to choose. > > This is true if the problem is at the level of source-code / algorithmic > implementation of the core classes. But, if the problem is because of how > the core classes perform because of the language implementaiton, this is not > true. For example, the opts you implement for the language might lead to > good performance for the core classes too. Obviously, I am speaking > hypothetically since I don't know much about what the performance > bottlenecks are in the core classes.
Much of our core classes are implemented in Java and not in Ruby. Array,String,Hash...all Java impls. So while improved execution speed is important, when we run larger applications it seems like core libraries seems to take up a lot more execution time. It is worth the effort to make faster Ruby execution by all means, but we need to independently do more profiling to also speed up some of these Java core method bits too. -Tom -- blog: http://blog.enebo.com twitter: tom_enebo mail: tom.en...@gmail.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this list, please visit: http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
