>Regarding the HDFS dependency its not a direct dependency rather its implementing the RemoteStorageManager interface. We packaged it along with core to make it more convenient to test it. We can move this to external module and keep it there. Let me know what you think.
Let me elaborate more on this point. With the new changes in the PR, kafka core or any other existing module is not dependent on HDFS. We created a new module called `remote-storage-managers/hdfs`. Libraries generated by this module are added to libs while packaging the distribution. This makes easy for users to try HDFS tiered storage instead of users building hdfs module and add it to libs on their own. We have plans to push these libs into external/libs/ directory and they will not be added to the classpath by default. We can add them to the classpath in scripts based on a system property. On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 6:26 AM Harsha Chintalapani <ka...@harsha.io> wrote: > > Hi Jun, > Thanks for the feedback. Given the no.of engineers involved in > cross-team effort > it would be great to have this as feature branch. Irrespective of if its in > my fork > or in Apache Kafka's branch it needs to be constantly rebased from trunk to > keep it current. > Our proposal is to merge it in feature branch and open a PR so its no > different than current PR except that > its in central repo rather my fork. Having it in Kafka's branch > makes it easier for everyone to collaborate on this important feature in > kafka. Let me know if you still think otherwise. > KIP is updated and we can go through the discussion. > Regarding the HDFS dependency its not a direct dependency rather > its implementing the RemoteStorageManager interface. > We packaged it along with core to make it more convenient to test it. We > can move this to external module and keep it there. > Let me know what you think. > > Thanks, > Harsha > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 3:53 PM Jun Rao <j...@confluent.io> wrote: > > > Hi, Harsha, > > > > Historically, we tried using a feature branch in 0.8. The experience > > actually wasn't great. Merging the feature branch to the main branch > > required additional review work and each merge with the main branch added > > the risk of introducing new bugs. So, we have been avoiding feature > > branches since then, even for some major features. > > > > It's also going to be weird to have a feature branch before a KIP is > > accepted. > > > > The KIP hasn't been updated much since the initial reviews. Is it ready for > > discussion again? > > > > Looking at the PR, it seems to have direct dependency on HDFS. My > > understanding is that the goal of the KIP is to make it more general such > > that it can bind to different types of block storage. If so, we should > > avoid introducing a direct dependency to any specific block storage in > > Apache Kafka. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jun > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 8:46 AM Harsha <ka...@harsha.io> wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > Thanks for the initial feedback on the KIP-405. We opened a PR > > > here https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/7561 . > > > Please take a look and let us know if you have any questions. > > > Since this feature is being developed by engineers from different > > > companies we would like to open a feature branch in apache kafka git. It > > > will allow us collaborate in open source community rather than in private > > > branches. Please let me know if you have any objections to opening a > > > feature branch in kafka's git repo. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Harsha > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, at 10:04 PM, Harsha wrote: > > > > Thanks, Ron. Updating the KIP. will add answers here as well > > > > > > > > 1) If the cold storage technology can be cross-region, is there a > > > > possibility for a disaster recovery Kafka cluster to share the > > messages > > > in > > > > cold storage? My guess is the answer is no, and messages replicated > > to > > > the > > > > D/R cluster have to be migrated to cold storage from there > > > independently. > > > > (The same cross-region cold storage medium could be used, but every > > > message > > > > would appear there twice). > > > > > > > > If I understand the question correctly, what you are saying is Kafka A > > > > cluster (active) shipping logs to remote storage which cross-region > > > > replication and another Kafka Cluster B (Passive) will it be able to > > > > use the remote storage copied logs directly. > > > > For the initial version my answer is No. We can handle this in > > > > subsequent changes after this one. > > > > > > > > 2) Can/should external (non-Kafka) tools have direct access to the > > > messages > > > > in cold storage. I think this might have been addressed when someone > > > asked > > > > about ACLs, and I believe the answer is "no" -- if some external tool > > > needs > > > > to operate on that data then that external tool should read that data > > by > > > > acting as a Kafka consumer. Again, just asking to get the answer > > clearly > > > > documented in case it is unclear. > > > > > > > > The answer is No. All tools/clients must go through broker APIs to > > > > access any data (local or remote). > > > > Only Kafka broker user will have access to remote storage logs and > > > > Security/ACLs will work the way it does today. > > > > Tools/Clients going directly to the remote storage might help in terms > > > > of efficiency but this requires Protocol changes and some way of > > > > syncing ACLs in Kafka to the Remote storage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, at 8:48 AM, Ron Dagostino wrote: > > > > > Hi Harsha. A couple of questions. I think I know the answers, but > > it > > > > > would be good to see them explicitly documented. > > > > > > > > > > 1) If the cold storage technology can be cross-region, is there a > > > > > possibility for a disaster recovery Kafka cluster to share the > > > messages in > > > > > cold storage? My guess is the answer is no, and messages replicated > > > to the > > > > > D/R cluster have to be migrated to cold storage from there > > > independently. > > > > > (The same cross-region cold storage medium could be used, but every > > > message > > > > > would appear there twice). > > > > > > > > > > 2) Can/should external (non-Kafka) tools have direct access to the > > > messages > > > > > in cold storage. I think this might have been addressed when someone > > > asked > > > > > about ACLs, and I believe the answer is "no" -- if some external tool > > > needs > > > > > to operate on that data then that external tool should read that data > > > by > > > > > acting as a Kafka consumer. Again, just asking to get the answer > > > clearly > > > > > documented in case it is unclear. > > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 12:53 AM Harsha <ka...@harsha.io> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Viktor, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Now, will the consumer be able to consume a remote segment if: > > > > > > - the remote segment is stored in the remote storage, BUT > > > > > > - the leader broker failed right after this AND > > > > > > - the follower which is to become a leader didn't scan yet for a > > new > > > > > > segment?" > > > > > > > > > > > > If I understand correctly, after a local log segment copied to > > > remote and > > > > > > leader is failed to write the index files and leadership changed > > to a > > > > > > follower. In this case we consider the log segment copy failed and > > > newly > > > > > > elected leader will start copying the data from last the known > > > offset in > > > > > > the remote to copy. Consumers who are looking for the offset which > > > might > > > > > > be in the failed copy log segment will continue to be read the data > > > from > > > > > > local disk since the local log segment will only be deleted once a > > > > > > successful copy of the log segment. > > > > > > > > > > > > "As a follow-up question, what are your experiences, does a > > failover > > > in a > > > > > > broker causes bigger than usual churn in the consumers? (I'm > > > thinking about > > > > > > the time required to rebuild remote index files.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > Rebuild remote index files will only happen in case of remote > > > storage > > > > > > missing all the copied index files. Fail-over will not trigger > > this > > > > > > rebuild. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ryan, > > > > > > > > > > > > "Harsha, can you comment on this alternative approach: instead of > > > fetching > > > > > > directly from remote storage via a new API, implement something > > like > > > > > > paging, where segments are paged-in and out of cold storage based > > on > > > access > > > > > > frequency/recency? For example, when a remote segment is accessed, > > > it could > > > > > > be first fetched to disk and then read from there. I suppose this > > > would > > > > > > require less code changes, or at least less API changes." > > > > > > > > > > > > Copying whole log segment from remote is inefficient. When tiered > > > storage > > > > > > is enabled users might prefer hardware with smaller disks and > > having > > > to > > > > > > copy the log segment to local disk again , especially incase of > > > multiple > > > > > > consumers on multiple topics triggering this might negatively > > affect > > > the > > > > > > available local storage. > > > > > > What we proposed in the KIP doesn't affect the existing APIs and we > > > didn't > > > > > > call for any API changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > "And related to paging, does the proposal address what happens > > when a > > > > > > broker > > > > > > runs out of HDD space? Maybe we should have a way to configure a > > max > > > number > > > > > > of segments or bytes stored on each broker, after which older or > > > > > > least-recently-used segments are kicked out, even if they aren't > > > expired > > > > > > per the retention policy? Otherwise, I suppose tiered storage > > > requires some > > > > > > babysitting to ensure that brokers don't run out of local storage, > > > despite > > > > > > having access to potentially unbounded cold storage." > > > > > > > > > > > > Existing Kafka behavior will not change with addition of tiered > > > storage > > > > > > and enabling it also will not change behavior. > > > > > > Just like today it's up to the operator to make sure the HD space > > is > > > > > > monitored and take necessary actions to mitigate that before it > > > becomes > > > > > > fatal failure for broker. We don't stop users to configure the > > > retention > > > > > > period to infinite and they can easily run out of the space. > > > > > > > > > > > > These are not the alternatives considered as they are not efficient > > > copy > > > > > > in out of local disk , hence the reason we didn't add to > > alternatives > > > > > > considered :). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019, at 7:51 AM, Ryanne Dolan wrote: > > > > > > > Harsha, can you comment on this alternative approach: instead of > > > fetching > > > > > > > directly from remote storage via a new API, implement something > > > like > > > > > > > paging, where segments are paged-in and out of cold storage based > > > on > > > > > > access > > > > > > > frequency/recency? For example, when a remote segment is > > accessed, > > > it > > > > > > could > > > > > > > be first fetched to disk and then read from there. I suppose this > > > would > > > > > > > require less code changes, or at least less API changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And related to paging, does the proposal address what happens > > when > > > a > > > > > > broker > > > > > > > runs out of HDD space? Maybe we should have a way to configure a > > > max > > > > > > number > > > > > > > of segments or bytes stored on each broker, after which older or > > > > > > > least-recently-used segments are kicked out, even if they aren't > > > expired > > > > > > > per the retention policy? Otherwise, I suppose tiered storage > > > requires > > > > > > some > > > > > > > babysitting to ensure that brokers don't run out of local > > storage, > > > > > > despite > > > > > > > having access to potentially unbounded cold storage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just some things to add to Alternatives Considered :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ryanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 8:21 AM Viktor Somogyi-Vass < > > > > > > viktorsomo...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Harsha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the answer, makes sense. > > > > > > > > In the meantime one edge case popped up in my mind but first > > let > > > me > > > > > > > > summarize what I understand if I interpret your KIP correctly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So basically whenever the leader RSM copies over a segment to > > the > > > > > > remote > > > > > > > > storage, the leader RLM will append an entry to its remote > > index > > > files > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the remote position. After this LogManager can delete the local > > > > > > segment. > > > > > > > > Parallel to this RLM followers are periodically scanning the > > > remote > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > for files and if they find a new one they update their indices. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, will the consumer be able to consume a remote segment if: > > > > > > > > - the remote segment is stored in the remote storage, BUT > > > > > > > > - the leader broker failed right after this AND > > > > > > > > - the follower which is to become a leader didn't scan yet for > > a > > > new > > > > > > > > segment? > > > > > > > > Would this result in an OffsetOutOfRangeException or would the > > > failover > > > > > > > > halt the consume request until the new leader has the latest > > > > > > information? > > > > > > > > As a follow-up question, what are your experiences, does a > > > failover in > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > broker causes bigger than usual churn in the consumers? (I'm > > > thinking > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > the time required to rebuild remote index files.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Viktor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:49 PM Harsha <ka...@harsha.io> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eno, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. Answers are inline > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Performance & durability > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > - would be good to have more discussion on performance > > > implications > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > tiering. Copying the data from the local storage to the > > remote > > > > > > storage is > > > > > > > > > going to be expensive in terms of network bandwidth and will > > > affect > > > > > > > > > foreground traffic to Kafka potentially reducing its > > > throughput and > > > > > > > > > latency." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good point. We've run our local tests with 10GigE cards, even > > > though > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > clients bandwidth requirements are high with 1000s of clients > > > > > > producing / > > > > > > > > > consuming data we never hit hit our limits on network > > > bandwidth. More > > > > > > > > often > > > > > > > > > we hit limits of CPU, Mem limits than the network bandwidth. > > > But > > > > > > this is > > > > > > > > > something to be taken care of by the operator if they want to > > > enable > > > > > > > > tiered > > > > > > > > > storage. > > > > > > > > > Also as mentioned in the KIP/previous threads ,clients > > > requesting > > > > > > older > > > > > > > > > data is very rare and often used as insurance policy . What > > > proposed > > > > > > here > > > > > > > > > does increase bandwidth interms of shipping logsegments to > > > remote but > > > > > > > > > access patterns determines how much we end up reading from > > > remote > > > > > > tier. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "- throttling the copying of the data above might be a > > > solution, > > > > > > however, > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > you have a few TB of data to move to the slower remote tier > > > the risk > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > that the movement will never complete on time under high > > Kafka > > > load. > > > > > > Do > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > need a scheduler to use idle time to do the copying?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In our design, we are going to have scheduler in RLM which > > will > > > > > > > > > periodically copy in-active(rolled-over) log segments. > > > > > > > > > Not sure idle time is easy to calculate and schedule a copy. > > > More > > > > > > over we > > > > > > > > > want to copy the segments as soon as they are available. > > > > > > > > > Throttling something we can take into account and provide > > > options to > > > > > > tune > > > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "- Have you considered having two options: 1) a slow tier > > only > > > > > > (e.g., all > > > > > > > > > the data on HDFS) and 2) a fast tier only like Kafka today. > > > This > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > avoid copying data between the tiers. Customers that can > > > tolerate a > > > > > > > > slower > > > > > > > > > tier with a better price/GB can just choose option (1). Would > > > be > > > > > > good to > > > > > > > > > put in Alternatives considered." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we want to have is Kafka that is known to the users > > > today with > > > > > > > > local > > > > > > > > > fast disk access and fast data serving layer. Tiered Storage > > > option > > > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > not be for everyone and most users who are happy with Kafka > > > today > > > > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > see changes to their operation because of this KIP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fundamentally, we believe remote tiered storage data accessed > > > very > > > > > > > > > infrequently. We expect anyone going to read from remote > > tiered > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > expects a slower read response (mostly backfills). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making an explicit change like slow/fast tier will only cause > > > more > > > > > > > > > confusion and operation complexity that will bring into play. > > > With > > > > > > tiered > > > > > > > > > storage , only users who want to use cheaper long-term > > storage > > > can > > > > > > enable > > > > > > > > > it and others can operate the Kafka as its today. It will > > > give a > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > balance of serving latest reads from local disk almost all > > the > > > time > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > shipping older data and reading from remote tier when clients > > > needs > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > older data. If necessary, we can re-visit slow/fast-tier > > > options at a > > > > > > > > later > > > > > > > > > point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Topic configs > > > > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > - related to performance but also availability, we need to > > > discuss > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > replication mode for the remote tier. For example, if the > > Kafka > > > > > > topics > > > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > to have 3-way replication, will they continue to have 3-way > > > > > > replication > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > the remote tier? Will the user configure that replication? In > > > S3 for > > > > > > > > > example, one can choose from different S3 tiers like STD or > > > SIA, but > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > is no direct control over the replication factor like in > > > Kafka." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Remote tier is expected to be reliable storage with its > > own > > > > > > > > > replication mechanisms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " how will security and ACLs be configured for the remote > > tier. > > > > > > E.g., if > > > > > > > > > user A does not have access to a Kafka topic, when that topic > > > is > > > > > > moved to > > > > > > > > > S3 or HDFS there needs to be a way to prevent access to the > > S3 > > > > > > bucket for > > > > > > > > > that user. This might be outside the scope of this KIP but > > > would be > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > discuss first." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned in the KIP "Alternatives" section We will keep > > > the > > > > > > Kafka as > > > > > > > > > the owner of those files in S3 or HDFS and take advantage of > > > HDFS > > > > > > > > security > > > > > > > > > model (file system permissions). So any user who wants to go > > > > > > directly and > > > > > > > > > access files from HDFS will not be able to read them and any > > > client > > > > > > > > > requests will go through Kafka and its ACLs will apply like > > it > > > does > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > other request. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " I'm excited about this potential feature. Did you consider > > > > > > > > > storing the information about the remote segments in a Kafka > > > topic as > > > > > > > > > opposed to in the remote storage itself? The topic would > > need > > > > > > infinite > > > > > > > > > retention (or it would need to be compacted) so as not to > > > itself be > > > > > > sent > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > cold storage, but assuming that topic would fit on local disk > > > for all > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > (an open question as to whether this is acceptable or not) it > > > feels > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > the most natural way to communicate information among brokers > > > -- more > > > > > > > > > natural than having them poll the remote storage systems, at > > > least." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With RemoteIndex we are extending the current index mechanism > > > to > > > > > > find a > > > > > > > > > offset and its message to find a file in remote storage for a > > > givent > > > > > > > > > offset. This will be optimal way finding for a given offset > > > which > > > > > > remote > > > > > > > > > segment might be serving compare to storing all of this data > > > into > > > > > > > > internal > > > > > > > > > topic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "To add to Eric's question/confusion about where logic lives > > > (RLM vs. > > > > > > > > RSM), > > > > > > > > > I think it would be helpful to explicitly identify in the KIP > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > RLM > > > > > > > > > delegates to the RSM since the RSM is part of the public API > > > and is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pluggable piece. For example, instead of saying "RLM will > > > ship the > > > > > > log > > > > > > > > > segment files that are older than a configurable time to > > remote > > > > > > storage" > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > think it would be better to say "RLM identifies log segment > > > files > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > older than a configurable time and delegates to the > > configured > > > RSM to > > > > > > > > ship > > > > > > > > > them to remote storage" (or something like that -- just make > > > it clear > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > the RLM is delegating to the configured RSM)." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. I agree with you. I'll update the KIP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ambud, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "1. Wouldn't implicit checking for old offsets in remote > > > location if > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > found locally on the leader i.e. do we really need remote > > index > > > > > > files? > > > > > > > > > Since the storage path for a given topic would presumably be > > > constant > > > > > > > > > across all the brokers, the remote topic-partition path could > > > simply > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > checked to see if there are any segment file names that would > > > meet > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > offset requirements for a Consumer Fetch Request. RSM > > > implementations > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > optionally cache this information." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By storing the remote index files locally , it will be faster > > > for us > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > determine for a requested offset which file might contain the > > > data. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > will help us resolve the remote file quickly and return the > > > response. > > > > > > > > > Instead of making a call to remote tier for index look up. > > > Given > > > > > > index > > > > > > > > > files are smaller , it won't be much hit to the storage > > space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "2. Would it make sense to create an internal compacted Kafka > > > topic > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > publish & record remote segment information? This would > > enable > > > the > > > > > > > > > followers to get updates about new segments rather than > > running > > > > > > list() > > > > > > > > > operations on remote storage to detect new segments which may > > > be > > > > > > > > > expensive." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Ron also alluding to this. We thought shipping remote > > > index > > > > > > files > > > > > > > > > to remote storage files and let the follower's RLM picking > > > that up > > > > > > makes > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > easy to have the current replication protocol without any > > > changes. > > > > > > So we > > > > > > > > > don't determine if a follower is in ISR or not based on > > another > > > > > > topic's > > > > > > > > > replication. We will run small tests and determine if use of > > > topic > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > better for this. Thanks for the suggestion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. For RLM to scan local segment rotations are you thinking > > of > > > > > > leveraging > > > > > > > > > java.nio.file.WatchService or simply running listFiles() on a > > > > > > periodic > > > > > > > > > basis? Since WatchService implementation is heavily OS > > > dependent it > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > create some complications around missing FS Events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally we want to introduce file events like you suggested. > > > For POC > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > we are using just listFiles(). Also copying these files to > > > remote > > > > > > can be > > > > > > > > > slower and we will not delete the files from local disk until > > > the > > > > > > segment > > > > > > > > > is copied and any requests to the data in these files will be > > > served > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > local disk. So I don't think we need to be aggressive and > > > optimize > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > copy segment to remote path. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Viktor, > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I have a rather technical question to this. How do you plan > > to > > > > > > package > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > extension? Does this mean that Kafka will depend on HDFS? > > > > > > > > > I think it'd be nice to somehow separate this off to a > > > different > > > > > > package > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the project so that it could be built and released separately > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > main > > > > > > > > > Kafka packages." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would like all of this code to be part of Apache Kafka . > > In > > > early > > > > > > days > > > > > > > > > of Kafka, there is external module which used to contain > > kafka > > > to > > > > > > hdfs > > > > > > > > copy > > > > > > > > > tools and dependencies. We would like to have RLM (class > > > > > > implementation) > > > > > > > > > and RSM(interface) to be in core and as you suggested, > > > > > > implementation of > > > > > > > > > RSM could be in another package so that the dependencies of > > > RSM won't > > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > > > into Kafka's classpath unless someone explicity configures > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, at 1:02 AM, Viktor Somogyi-Vass wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hey Harsha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a rather technical question to this. How do you plan > > > to > > > > > > package > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > extension? Does this mean that Kafka will depend on HDFS? > > > > > > > > > > I think it'd be nice to somehow separate this off to a > > > different > > > > > > > > package > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > the project so that it could be built and released > > > separately from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > main > > > > > > > > > > Kafka packages. > > > > > > > > > > This decoupling would be useful when direct dependency on > > > HDFS (or > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > implementations) is not needed and would also encourage > > > decoupling > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > other storage implementations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > Viktor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 3:44 AM Ambud Sharma < > > > > > > asharma52...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Harsha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for proposing this KIP. We are looking forward > > > to this > > > > > > > > > feature as > > > > > > > > > > > well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A few questions around the design & implementation: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Wouldn't implicit checking for old offsets in remote > > > location > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > found locally on the leader i.e. do we really need remote > > > index > > > > > > > > files? > > > > > > > > > > > Since the storage path for a given topic would presumably > > > be > > > > > > constant > > > > > > > > > > > across all the brokers, the remote topic-partition path > > > could > > > > > > simply > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > checked to see if there are any segment file names that > > > would > > > > > > meet > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > offset requirements for a Consumer Fetch Request. RSM > > > > > > implementations > > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > optionally cache this information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Would it make sense to create an internal compacted > > > Kafka > > > > > > topic to > > > > > > > > > > > publish & record remote segment information? This would > > > enable > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > followers to get updates about new segments rather than > > > running > > > > > > > > list() > > > > > > > > > > > operations on remote storage to detect new segments which > > > may be > > > > > > > > > expensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. For RLM to scan local segment rotations are you > > > thinking of > > > > > > > > > leveraging > > > > > > > > > > > java.nio.file.WatchService or simply running listFiles() > > > on a > > > > > > > > periodic > > > > > > > > > > > basis? Since WatchService implementation is heavily OS > > > dependent > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > > > create some complications around missing FS Events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > Ambud > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 8:04 AM Ron Dagostino < > > > rndg...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Harsha. I'm excited about this potential feature. > > > Did you > > > > > > > > > consider > > > > > > > > > > > > storing the information about the remote segments in a > > > Kafka > > > > > > topic > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > opposed to in the remote storage itself? The topic > > > would need > > > > > > > > > infinite > > > > > > > > > > > > retention (or it would need to be compacted) so as not > > to > > > > > > itself be > > > > > > > > > sent > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > cold storage, but assuming that topic would fit on > > local > > > disk > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > > > > (an open question as to whether this is acceptable or > > > not) it > > > > > > feels > > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > the most natural way to communicate information among > > > brokers > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > > > natural than having them poll the remote storage > > > systems, at > > > > > > least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To add to Eric's question/confusion about where logic > > > lives > > > > > > (RLM > > > > > > > > vs. > > > > > > > > > > > RSM), > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it would be helpful to explicitly identify in > > > the KIP > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > RLM > > > > > > > > > > > > delegates to the RSM since the RSM is part of the > > public > > > API > > > > > > and is > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > pluggable piece. For example, instead of saying "RLM > > > will > > > > > > ship the > > > > > > > > > log > > > > > > > > > > > > segment files that are older than a configurable time > > to > > > remote > > > > > > > > > storage" > > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > think it would be better to say "RLM identifies log > > > segment > > > > > > files > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > older than a configurable time and delegates to the > > > configured > > > > > > RSM > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > ship > > > > > > > > > > > > them to remote storage" (or something like that -- just > > > make it > > > > > > > > clear > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > the RLM is delegating to the configured RSM). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:12 AM Eno Thereska < > > > > > > > > eno.there...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Harsha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A couple of comments: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Performance & durability > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > - would be good to have more discussion on > > performance > > > > > > > > > implications of > > > > > > > > > > > > > tiering. Copying the data from the local storage to > > the > > > > > > remote > > > > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > going to be expensive in terms of network bandwidth > > > and will > > > > > > > > affect > > > > > > > > > > > > > foreground traffic to Kafka potentially reducing its > > > > > > throughput > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > latency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > - throttling the copying of the data above might be a > > > > > > solution, > > > > > > > > > however > > > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have a few TB of data to move to the slower > > remote > > > tier > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > risk is > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the movement will never complete on time under > > > high > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > load. Do > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > need a scheduler to use idle time to do the copying? > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Have you considered having two options: 1) a slow > > > tier only > > > > > > > > > (e.g., > > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > > the data on HDFS) and 2) a fast tier only like Kafka > > > today. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > > > avoid copying data between the tiers. Customers that > > > can > > > > > > > > tolerate a > > > > > > > > > > > > slower > > > > > > > > > > > > > tier with a better price/GB can just choose option > > (1). > > > > > > Would be > > > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > put in Alternatives considered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Topic configs > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > - related to performance but also availability, we > > > need to > > > > > > > > discuss > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > replication mode for the remote tier. For example, if > > > the > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > topics > > > > > > > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > > > > > to have 3-way replication, will they continue to have > > > 3-way > > > > > > > > > replication > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > the remote tier? Will the user configure that > > > replication? > > > > > > In S3 > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > example, one can choose from different S3 tiers like > > > STD or > > > > > > SIA, > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > > > > is no direct control over the replication factor like > > > in > > > > > > Kafka. > > > > > > > > > > > > > - how will security and ACLs be configured for the > > > remote > > > > > > tier. > > > > > > > > > E.g., > > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > > > > user A does not have access to a Kafka topic, when > > that > > > > > > topic is > > > > > > > > > moved > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > S3 or HDFS there needs to be a way to prevent access > > > to the > > > > > > S3 > > > > > > > > > bucket > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > that user. This might be outside the scope of this > > KIP > > > but > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > discuss first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's it for now, thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eno > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 4:40 PM Harsha < > > > ka...@harsha.io> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your initial feedback. We > > > updated the > > > > > > > > KIP. > > > > > > > > > > > Please > > > > > > > > > > > > > > take a look and let us know if you have any > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-405%3A+Kafka+Tiered+Storage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Harsha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Eno, Adam & Satish for you review and > > > questions. > > > > > > I'll > > > > > > > > > > > address > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > these in KIP and update the thread here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, at 7:09 AM, Satish Duggana > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Harsha for the KIP. It is a good start > > > for > > > > > > tiered > > > > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka. I have a few comments/questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be good to have a configuration to keep > > > the > > > > > > number > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > local > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segments instead of keeping only the active > > > segment. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > config > > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be exposed at cluster and topic levels with > > > default > > > > > > value > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some use cases, few consumers may lag over one > > > > > > segment, it > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > better to serve from local storage instead of > > > remote > > > > > > > > storage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be better to keep > > > “remote.log.storage.enable” > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > respective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > configuration at topic level along with cluster > > > level. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helpful in environments where few topics are > > > configured > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > local-storage and other topics are configured > > > with > > > > > > remote > > > > > > > > > > > storage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each topic-partition leader pushes its log > > > segments > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > respective > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > index files to remote whenever active log rolls > > > over, > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > updates > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote log index file for the respective remote > > > log > > > > > > > > segment. > > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > second option is to add offset index files also > > > for > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > > segment. > > > > > > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can serve consumer fetch requests for old > > > segments from > > > > > > > > > local log > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segment instead of serving directly from the > > > remote log > > > > > > > > > which may > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cause high latencies. There can be different > > > > > > strategies in > > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote segment is copied to a local segment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is “ > > > remote.log.manager.scheduler.interval.ms” > > > > > > config > > > > > > > > > about? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do followers sync RemoteLogSegmentIndex > > > files? Do > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > request > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from leader replica? This looks to be important > > > as the > > > > > > > > failed > > > > > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leader should have RemoteLogSegmentIndex > > updated > > > and > > > > > > ready > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > avoid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > high latencies in serving old data stored in > > > remote > > > > > > logs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Satish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:42 PM Ryanne Dolan < > > > > > > > > > > > > ryannedo...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Harsha, makes sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ryanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 5:53 PM Harsha > > > Chintalapani < > > > > > > > > > > > > > ka...@harsha.io> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I think you are saying that this enables > > > > > > additional > > > > > > > > > > > > (potentially > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cheaper) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storage options without *requiring* an > > > existing ETL > > > > > > > > > > > pipeline. “ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " But it's not really a replacement for the > > > sort of > > > > > > > > > pipelines > > > > > > > > > > > > > > people build > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with Connect, Gobblin etc.” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not. But also making an assumption > > that > > > > > > everyone > > > > > > > > > runs > > > > > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pipelines for storing raw Kafka data into > > > HDFS or > > > > > > S3 is > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrong > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > assumption. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aim of this KIP is to provide tiered > > > storage as > > > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > > > > > > package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > asking users to ship the data on their own > > > using > > > > > > > > existing > > > > > > > > > > > ETL, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which means > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > running a consumer and maintaining those > > > pipelines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " My point was that, if you are already > > > offloading > > > > > > > > > records in > > > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ETL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pipeline, why do you need a new pipeline > > > built > > > > > > into the > > > > > > > > > > > broker > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ship the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > same data to the same place?” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As you said its ETL pipeline, which means > > > users of > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > > > > pipelines > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reading the data from broker and > > > transforming its > > > > > > state > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storing it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > somewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of this KIP is store log segments > > > as it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their structure so that we can use the > > > existing > > > > > > offset > > > > > > > > > > > > mechanisms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to look > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it up when the consumer needs to read old > > > data. > > > > > > When > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > > load > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it via > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your existing pipelines you are reading the > > > topic > > > > > > as a > > > > > > > > > whole > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn’t guarantee that you’ll produce this > > > data > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > HDFS > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S3 in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > same order and who is going to generate the > > > Index > > > > > > files > > > > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "So you'd end up with one of 1)cold > > segments > > > are > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka; 2) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have the same data written to HDFS/etc > > > twice, > > > > > > once > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and once > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for everything else, in two separate > > formats” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are talking two different use cases. If > > > > > > someone is > > > > > > > > > > > storing > > > > > > > > > > > > > raw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > data > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out of Kafka for long term access. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By storing the data as it is in HDFS though > > > Kafka > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > solve > > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They do not need to run another pipe-line > > to > > > ship > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > logs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they are running pipelines to store in > > > HDFS in a > > > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > > > > > > > format, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thats a different use case. May be they are > > > > > > > > transforming > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > logs to ORC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so that they can query through Hive. Once > > > you > > > > > > > > transform > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > log > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segment it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does loose its ability to use the existing > > > offset > > > > > > > > index. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Main objective here not to change the > > > existing > > > > > > protocol > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be able > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to write and read logs from remote storage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 4, 2019, 2:53 PM -0800, Ryanne > > Dolan < > > > > > > > > > > > > > ryannedo...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Harsha, makes sense for the most > > > part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tiered storage is to get away from this > > > and > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > transparent to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you are saying that this enables > > > > > > additional > > > > > > > > > > > > > (potentially > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cheaper) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storage options without *requiring* an > > > existing > > > > > > ETL > > > > > > > > > > > pipeline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > really a replacement for the sort of > > > pipelines > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > build > > > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gobblin etc. My point was that, if you > > are > > > > > > already > > > > > > > > > > > offloading > > > > > > > > > > > > > > records in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ETL pipeline, why do you need a new > > > pipeline > > > > > > built > > > > > > > > > into the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > broker to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the same data to the same place? I think > > > in most > > > > > > > > cases > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > additional pipeline, not a replacement, > > > because > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > segments > > > > > > > > > > > > > > written to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold storage won't be useful outside > > > Kafka. So > > > > > > you'd > > > > > > > > > end up > > > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold segments are only useful to Kafka; > > 2) > > > you > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > > > > > > > data written > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to HDFS/etc twice, once for Kafka and > > once > > > for > > > > > > > > > everything > > > > > > > > > > > > else, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in two > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate formats; 3) you use your > > existing > > > ETL > > > > > > > > > pipeline and > > > > > > > > > > > > > read > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > data > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me, an ideal solution would let me > > spool > > > > > > segments > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like, and then let Kafka clients > > > > > > seamlessly > > > > > > > > > access > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today I can do that in the client, but > > > ideally > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > broker > > > > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do it for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me via some HDFS/Hive/S3 plugin. The KIP > > > seems to > > > > > > > > > > > accomplish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that -- just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without leveraging anything I've > > currently > > > got in > > > > > > > > > place. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ryanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 3:34 PM Harsha < > > > > > > > > ka...@harsha.io > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eric, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your questions. Answers are > > > in-line > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The high-level design seems to > > indicate > > > that > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how to copy log segments to remote > > > storage > > > > > > lives in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > RLM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > class. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default implementation is then HDFS > > > specific > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > additional > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implementations being left to the > > > community. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > seems > > > > > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > require anyone implementing a new RLM > > to > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > re-implement > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > logic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when to ship data to remote storage." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RLM will be responsible for shipping > > log > > > > > > segments > > > > > > > > > and it > > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > decide > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a log segment is ready to be shipped > > > over. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once a Log Segement(s) are identified > > as > > > rolled > > > > > > > > > over, RLM > > > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > delegate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this responsibility to a pluggable > > remote > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implementation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Users who > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are looking add their own > > implementation > > > to > > > > > > enable > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storages all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > need to do is to implement the copy and > > > read > > > > > > > > > mechanisms > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > re-implement RLM itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Would it not be better for the Remote > > > Log > > > > > > Manager > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implementation to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > non-configurable, and instead have an > > > > > > interface for > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > layer? That way the "when" of the logic > > > is > > > > > > > > consistent > > > > > > > > > > > > across > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implementations and it's only a matter > > of > > > > > > "how," > > > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Streams > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > StateStores are managed." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's possible that we can RLM > > > > > > non-configurable. But > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > initial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > release and to keep the backward > > > compatibility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we want to make this configurable and > > > for any > > > > > > users > > > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > interested in having the LogSegments > > > shipped to > > > > > > > > > remote, > > > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > worry about this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ryanne, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "How could this be used to leverage > > fast > > > > > > key-value > > > > > > > > > > > stores, > > > > > > > > > > > > > e.g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Couchbase, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which can serve individual records but > > > maybe > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segments? Or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > idea to only support writing and > > fetching > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > > segments? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sense to support both?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LogSegment once its rolled over are > > > immutable > > > > > > > > > objects and > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the current structure of LogSegments > > and > > > > > > > > > corresponding > > > > > > > > > > > > Index > > > > > > > > > > > > > > files. It > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be easy to copy the whole segment as it > > > is, > > > > > > instead > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > re-reading each > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > file > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and use a key/value store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Instead of defining a new interface > > > and/or > > > > > > > > > mechanism to > > > > > > > > > > > > ETL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from brokers to cold storage, can we > > just > > > > > > leverage > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > itself? In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > particular, we can already ETL records > > > to HDFS > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gobblin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc -- we really just need a way for > > > brokers to > > > > > > > > read > > > > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > > > > > records > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm wondering whether the new API could > > > be > > > > > > limited > > > > > > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fetch, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > existing ETL pipelines could be more > > > easily > > > > > > > > > leveraged. > > > > > > > > > > > For > > > > > > > > > > > > > > example, if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already have an ETL pipeline from Kafka > > > to > > > > > > HDFS, > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leave that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > place and just tell Kafka how to read > > > these > > > > > > > > > > > > records/segments > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from cold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storage when necessary." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is pretty much what everyone does > > > and it > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > additional > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overhead > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of keeping these pipelines operating > > and > > > > > > > > monitoring. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's proposed in the KIP is not ETL. > > > It's > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > looking > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > logs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are written and rolled over to copy the > > > file > > > > > > as it > > > > > > > > > is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Each new topic needs to be added (sure > > > we can > > > > > > do so > > > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wildcard or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another mechanism) but new topics need > > > to be > > > > > > > > onboard > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > ship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the data > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote storage through a traditional > > ETL > > > > > > pipeline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once the data lands somewhere like > > > HDFS/HIVE > > > > > > etc.. > > > > > > > > > Users > > > > > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to write > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another processing line to re-process > > > this data > > > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doing it in their Stream processing > > > pipelines. > > > > > > > > Tiered > > > > > > > > > > > > storage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is to get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > away from this and make this > > transparent > > > to the > > > > > > > > user. > > > > > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > run another ETL process to ship the > > logs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "I'm wondering if we could just add > > > support for > > > > > > > > > loading > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segments from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote URIs instead of from file, i.e. > > > via > > > > > > plugins > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > s3://, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hdfs:// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect less broker logic would > > change > > > in > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > case -- > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > broker > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wouldn't necessarily care if it reads > > > from > > > > > > file:// > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > s3:// > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > load a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segment." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, this is what we are discussing in > > > KIP. We > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > leaving > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > details > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > loading segments to RLM read part > > > instead of > > > > > > > > directly > > > > > > > > > > > > > exposing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Broker. This way we can keep the > > current > > > Kafka > > > > > > code > > > > > > > > > as it > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changing the assumptions around the > > local > > > > > > disk. Let > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > RLM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > handle the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote storage part. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 4, 2019, at 12:54 PM, > > Ryanne > > > Dolan > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha, Sriharsha, Suresh, a couple > > > thoughts: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - How could this be used to leverage > > > fast > > > > > > > > key-value > > > > > > > > > > > > stores, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > e.g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Couchbase, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which can serve individual records > > but > > > maybe > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segments? Or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > idea to only support writing and > > > fetching > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > > > segments? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sense to support both? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Instead of defining a new interface > > > and/or > > > > > > > > > mechanism > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ETL segment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > files > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from brokers to cold storage, can we > > > just > > > > > > > > leverage > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > itself? In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > particular, we can already ETL > > records > > > to > > > > > > HDFS > > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > > > Kafka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Connect, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gobblin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc -- we really just need a way for > > > brokers > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > read > > > > > > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > > > > > > records > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > back. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm wondering whether the new API > > > could be > > > > > > > > limited > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fetch, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > existing ETL pipelines could be more > > > easily > > > > > > > > > leveraged. > > > > > > > > > > > > For > > > > > > > > > > > > > > example, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already have an ETL pipeline from > > > Kafka to > > > > > > HDFS, > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > place and just tell Kafka how to read > > > these > > > > > > > > > > > > > records/segments > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storage when necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - I'm wondering if we could just add > > > support > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > loading > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segments > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remote URIs instead of from file, > > i.e. > > > via > > > > > > > > plugins > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > s3://, hdfs:// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect less broker logic would > > > change in > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > case > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > broker > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wouldn't necessarily care if it reads > > > from > > > > > > > > file:// > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > s3:// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to load a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > given > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > segment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Combining the previous two comments, > > I > > > can > > > > > > > > imagine > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > URI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > resolution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for segments. For example, first try > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > file:///logs/{topic}/{segment}.log, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > s3://mybucket/{topic}/{date}/{segment}.log, > > > > > > > > > etc, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leveraging your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > existing ETL pipeline(s). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ryanne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 12:01 PM > > Harsha > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > ka...@harsha.io> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are interested in adding tiered > > > storage > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > Kafka. > > > > > > > > > > > > More > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > details > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about motivation and design are in > > > the > > > > > > KIP. We > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > working > > > > > > > > > > > > > > towards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > initial POC. Any feedback or > > > questions on > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > KIP > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Harsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
