Hi Sophie, all, I've updated the KIP with feedback from the discussion so far: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=211882832
As a terse summary of my current position: Pausing will only stop processing and punctuation (respecting modular topologies). Paused topologies will still a) consume from input topics, b) call the usual commit pathways (commits will happen basically as they would have), and c) standBy tasks will still be processed. Shout if the KIP or those details still need some TLC. Responding to Sophie inline below. On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 6:06 PM Sophie Blee-Goldman <sop...@confluent.io.invalid> wrote: > Don't worry, I'm going to be adding the APIs for topology-level pausing as > part of the modular topologies KIP, > so we don't need to worry about that for now. That said, I don't think we > should brush it off entirely and design > this feature in a way that's going to be incompatible or hugely raise the > LOE on bringing the (mostly already > implemented) modular topologies feature into the public API, just > because it "won the race to write a KIP" :) > Yes, I'm hoping that this is all compatible with modular topologies. I haven't seen anything so far which seems to be a problem; this KIP is just in a weird state to discuss details of acting on modular topologies.:) > I may be biased (ok, I definitely am), but I'm not in favor of adding this > as a state regardless of the modular topologies. > First of all any change to the KafkaStreams state machine is a breaking > change, no? So we would have to wait until > the next major release which seems like an unnecessary thing to block on. > (Whether to add this as a state to the > StreamThread's FSM is an implementation detail). > +1. I am sold on skipping out on new states. I had that as a rejected alternative in the KIP and have added a few more words to that bit. > Also, the semantics of using an `isPaused` method to distinguish a paused > instance (or topology) make more sense > to me -- this is a user-specified status, whereas the KafkaStreams state is > intended to relay the status of the system > itself. For example, if we are going to continue to poll during pause, then > shouldn't the client transition to REBALANCING? > I believe it makes sense to still allow distinguishing these states while a > client is paused, whereas making PAUSED its > own state means you can't tell when the client is rebalancing vs running, > or whether it is paused or dead: presumably > the NOT_RUNNING/ERROR state would trump the PAUSED state, which means you > would not be able to rely on > checking the state to see if you had called PAUSED on that instance. > Obviously you can work around this by just > maintaining a flag in the usercode, but all this feels very unnatural to me > vs just checking the `#isPaused` API. > > On that note, I had one question -- at what point would the `#isPaused` > check return true? Would it do so immediately > after pausing the instance, or only once it has finished committing offsets > and stopped returning records? > Immediately, `#isPaused` tells you about metadata. > Finally, on the note of punctuators I think it would make most sense to > either pause these as well or else add this an > an explicit option for the user. If this feature is used to, for example, > help save on processing costs while an app is > not in use, then it would probably be surprising and perhaps alarming to > see certain kinds of processing still continue. > >From other parts of the discussion, I'm sold on pausing punctuation. > The question of whether to continue fetching for standby tasks is maybe a > bit more debatable, as it would certainly be > nice to find your clients all caught up when you go to resume the instance > again, but I would still strongly suggest > pausing these as well. To use a similar example, imagine if you paused an > app because it was about to run out of > disk. If the standbys kept processing and filled up the remaining space, > you'd probably feel a bit betrayed by this API. > > WDYT? > At the minute, my moderately held position is that standby tasks ought to continue reading and remain caught up. If standby tasks would run out of space, there are probably bigger problems. If later it is desirable to manage punctuation or standby tasks, then it should be easy for future folks to modify things. Overall, I'd frame this KIP as "pause processing resulting in outputs". Cheers, Jim > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 10:33 AM Guozhang Wang <wangg...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I think for named topology we can leave the scope of this KIP as "all or > > nothing", i.e. when you pause an instance you pause all of its > topologies. > > I raised this question in my previous email just trying to clarify if > this > > is what you have in mind. We can leave the question of finer controlled > > pausing behavior for later when we have named topology being exposed via > > another KIP. > > > > > > Guozhang > > > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 7:50 AM John Roesler <vvcep...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > > > Thanks for the replies. This all sounds good to me. Just two further > > > comments: > > > > > > 3. It seems like you should aim for the simplest semantics. If the > intent > > > is to “pause” the instance, then you’d better pause the whole instance. > > If > > > you leave punctuations and standbys running, I expect we’d see bug > > reports > > > come in that the instance isn’t really paused. > > > > > > 5. Since you won the race to write a KIP, I don’t think it makes too > much > > > sense to worry too much about modular topologies. When they propose > their > > > KIP, they will have to specify a lot of state management behavior, and > > > pause/resume will have to be part of it. If they have some concern > about > > > your KIP, they’ll chime in. It doesn’t make sense for you to try and > > guess > > > what that proposal will look like. > > > > > > To be honest, you’re proposing a KafkaStreams runtime-level > pause/resume > > > function, not a topology-level one anyway, so it seems pretty clear > that > > it > > > would pause the whole runtime (of a single instance) regardless of any > > > modular topologies. If the intent is to pause individual topologies in > > the > > > future, you’d need a different API anyway. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > -John > > > > > > On Mon, May 9, 2022, at 08:10, Jim Hughes wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > > > Long emails are great; responding inline! > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 4:54 PM John Roesler <vvcep...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thanks for the KIP, Jim! > > > >> > > > >> This conversation seems to highlight that the KIP needs to specify > > > >> some of its behavior as well as its APIs, where the behavior is > > > >> observable and significant to users. > > > >> > > > >> For example: > > > >> > > > >> 1. Do you plan to have a guarantee that immediately after > > > >> calling KafkaStreams.pause(), users should observe that the instance > > > >> stops processing new records? Or should they expect that the threads > > > >> will continue to process some records and pause asynchronously > > > >> (you already answered this in the thread earlier)? > > > >> > > > > > > > > I'm happy to build up to a guarantee of sorts. My current idea is > that > > > > pause() does not do anything "exceptional" to get control back from a > > > > running topology. A currently running topology would get to complete > > its > > > > loop. > > > > > > > > Separately, I'm still piecing together how commits work. By some > > > > mechanism, after a pause, I do agree that the topology needs to > commit > > > its > > > > work in some manner. > > > > > > > > > > > >> 2. Will the threads continue to poll new records until they > naturally > > > fill > > > >> up the task buffers, or will they immediately pause their Consumers > > > >> as well? > > > >> > > > > > > > > Presently, I'm suggesting that consumers would fill up their buffers. > > > > > > > > > > > >> 3. Will threads continue to call (system time) punctuators, or would > > > >> punctuations also be paused? > > > >> > > > > > > > > In my first pass at thinking through this, I left the punctuators > > > running. > > > > To be honest, I'm not sure what they do, so my approach is either > lucky > > > and > > > > correct or it could be Very Clearly Wrong.;) > > > > > > > > > > > >> I realize that some of those questions simply may not have occurred > to > > > >> you, so this is not a criticism for leaving them off; I'm just > > pointing > > > out > > > >> that although we don't tend to mention implementation details in > KIPs, > > > >> we also can't be too high level, since there are a lot of > operational > > > >> details that users rely on to achieve various behaviors in Streams. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Ayup, I will add some details as we iron out the guarantees, > > > implementation > > > > details that are at the API level. This one is tough since internal > > > > features like NamedTopologies are part of the discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> A couple more comments: > > > >> > > > >> 4. +1 to what Guozhang said. It seems like we should we also do a > > commit > > > >> before entering the paused state. That way, any open transactions > > would > > > >> be closed and not have to worry about timing out. Even under ALOS, > it > > > >> seems best to go ahead and complete the processing of in-flight > > records > > > >> by committing. That way, if anything happens to die while it's > paused, > > > >> existing > > > >> work won't have to be repeated. Plus, if there are any processors > with > > > side > > > >> effects, users won't have to tolerate weird edge cases where a pause > > > occurs > > > >> after a processor sees a record, but before the result is sent to > its > > > >> outputs. > > > >> > > > >> 5. I noticed that you proposed not to add a PAUSED state, but I > didn't > > > >> follow > > > >> the rationale. Adding a state seems beneficial for a number of > > reasons: > > > >> StreamThreads already use the thread state to determine whether to > > > process > > > >> or not, so avoiding a new State would just mean adding a separate > flag > > > to > > > >> track > > > >> and then checking your new flag in addition to the State in the > > thread. > > > >> Also, > > > >> operating Streams applications is a non-trivial task, and users rely > > on > > > >> the State > > > >> (and transitions) to understand Streams's behavior. Adding a PAUSED > > > state > > > >> is an elegant way to communicate to operators what is happening with > > the > > > >> application. Note that the person digging though logs and metrics, > > > trying > > > >> to understand why the application isn't doing anything is probably > not > > > >> going > > > >> to be the same person who is calling pause() and resume(). Also, if > > you > > > add > > > >> a state, you don't need `isPaused()`. > > > >> > > > >> 5b. If you buy the arguments to go ahead and commit as well as the > > > >> argument to add a State, then I'd also suggest to follow the > existing > > > >> patterns > > > >> for the shutdown states by also adding PAUSING. That > > > >> way, you'll also expose a way to understand that Streams received > the > > > >> signal > > > >> to pause, and that it's still processing and committing some records > > in > > > >> preparation to enter a PAUSED state. I'm not sure if a RESUMING > state > > > would > > > >> also make sense. > > > >> > > > > > > > > I hit a tricky bit when thinking through having a PAUSED state... If > > one > > > > is using Named Topologies, and some of them are paused, what state is > > the > > > > Streams instance in? If we can agree on that, things may become > > > clear.... > > > > I can see two quick ideas: > > > > > > > > 1. The state is RUNNING and NamedTopologies have some other way to > > > > indicate state. > > > > > > > > 2. The state is something messy like PARTIALLY_PAUSED to reflect > that > > > the > > > > instance has something interesting going on. > > > > > > > > When I poked at things initially, I did try out having different > > states, > > > > and I readily agree that a PAUSING state may make sense. (Especially > > if > > > > there's a need to run commits before transitioning all the way to > > > PAUSED.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And that's all I have to say about that. I hope you don't find my > > > >> long message offputting. I'm fundamentally in favor of your KIP, > > > >> and I think with a little more explanation in the KIP, and a few > > > >> small tweaks to the proposal, we'll be able to provide good > > > >> ergonomics to our users. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> -John > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, May 7, 2022, at 00:06, Guozhang Wang wrote: > > > >> > I'm in favor of the "just pausing the instance itself“ option as > > > well. As > > > >> > for EOS, the point is that when the processing is paused, we would > > not > > > >> > trigger any `producer.send` during the time, and the transaction > > > timeout > > > >> is > > > >> > sort of relying on that behavior, so my point was that it's > probably > > > >> better > > > >> > to also commit the processing before we pause it. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Guozhang > > > >> > > > > >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 6:12 PM Jim Hughes > > > <jhug...@confluent.io.invalid> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> >> Hi Matthias, > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Since the only thing which will be paused is processing the > > > topology, I > > > >> >> think we can let commits happen naturally. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Good point about getting the paused state to new members; it is > > > seeming > > > >> >> like the "building block" approach is a good one to keep things > > > simple > > > >> at > > > >> >> first. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Cheers, > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Jim > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:31 PM Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org > > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > I think it's tricky to propagate a pauseAll() via the rebalance > > > >> >> > protocol. New members joining the group would need to get > paused, > > > too? > > > >> >> > Could there be weird race conditions with overlapping > pauseAll() > > > and > > > >> >> > resumeAll() calls on different instanced while there could be a > > > >> errors / > > > >> >> > network partitions or similar? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > I would argue that similar to IQ, we provide the basic building > > > >> blocks, > > > >> >> > and leave it the user users to implement cross instance > > management > > > >> for a > > > >> >> > pauseAll() scenario. -- Also, if there is really demand, we can > > > always > > > >> >> > add pauseAll()/resumeAll() as follow up work. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > About named typologies: I agree to Jim to not include them in > > this > > > KIP > > > >> >> > as they are not a public feature yet. If we make named > typologies > > > >> >> > public, the corresponding KIP should extend the pause/resume > > > feature > > > >> >> > (ie, APIs) accordingly. Of course, the code can (and should) > > > already > > > >> be > > > >> >> > setup to support it to be future proof. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Good call out about commit and EOS -- to simplify it, I think > it > > > might > > > >> >> > be good to commit also for the at-least-once case? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > -Matthias > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > On 5/6/22 1:05 PM, Jim Hughes wrote: > > > >> >> > > Hi Bill, > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > Great questions; I'll do my best to reply inline: > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:21 PM Bill Bejeck < > bbej...@gmail.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> Hi Jim, > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> Thanks for the KIP. I have a couple of meta-questions as > > well: > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> 1) Regarding pausing only a subset of running instances, I'm > > > >> thinking > > > >> >> > there > > > >> >> > >> may be a use case for pausing all of them. > > > >> >> > >> Would it make sense to also allow for pausing all > > instances > > > by > > > >> >> > adding a > > > >> >> > >> method `pauseAll()` or something similar? > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > Honestly, I'm indifferent on this point. Presently, I think > > > what I > > > >> >> have > > > >> >> > > proposed is the minimal change to get the ability to pause > and > > > >> resume > > > >> >> > > processing. If adding a 'pauseAll()' is required, I'd be > happy > > > to > > > >> do > > > >> >> > that! > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > From Guozhang's email, it sounds like this would require > using > > > the > > > >> >> > > rebalance protocol to trigger the coordination. Would there > be > > > >> enough > > > >> >> > room > > > >> >> > > in that approach to indicate that a named topology is to be > > > paused > > > >> >> across > > > >> >> > > all nodes? > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> 2) Would pausing affect standby tasks? For example, imagine > > > there > > > >> >> are 3 > > > >> >> > >> instances A, B, and C. > > > >> >> > >> A user elects to pause instance C only but it hosts the > > > standby > > > >> >> > tasks > > > >> >> > >> for A. > > > >> >> > >> Would the standby tasks on the paused application > continue > > > to > > > >> read > > > >> >> > from > > > >> >> > >> the changelog topic? > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > Yes, standby tasks would continue reading from the changelog > > > topic. > > > >> >> All > > > >> >> > > consumers would continue reading to avoid getting dropped > from > > > their > > > >> >> > > consumer groups. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > Cheers, > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > Jim > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> Thanks! > > > >> >> > >> Bill > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 2:44 PM Jim Hughes > > > >> >> <jhug...@confluent.io.invalid > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> wrote: > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >>> Hi Guozhang, > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> Thanks for the feedback; responses inline below: > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 1:09 PM Guozhang Wang < > > > wangg...@gmail.com> > > > >> >> > wrote: > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>>> Hello Jim, > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> Thanks for the proposed KIP. I have some meta questions > > about > > > it: > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> 1) Would an instance always pause/resume all of its > current > > > owned > > > >> >> > >>>> topologies (i.e. the named topologies), or are there any > > > >> scenarios > > > >> >> > >> where > > > >> >> > >>> we > > > >> >> > >>>> only want to pause/resume a subset of them? > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> An instance may wish to pause some of its named topologies. > > I > > > was > > > >> >> > unsure > > > >> >> > >>> what to say about named topologies in the KIP since they > seem > > > to > > > >> be > > > >> >> an > > > >> >> > >>> internal detail at the moment. > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> I intend to add to KafkaStreamsNamedTopologyWrapper methods > > > like: > > > >> >> > >>> public void pauseNamedTopology(final String > > > topologyToPause) > > > >> >> > >>> public boolean isNamedTopologyPaused(final String > > > topology) > > > >> >> > >>> public void resumeNamedTopology(final String > > > >> topologyToResume) > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>>> 2) From a user's perspective, do we want to always issue a > > > >> >> > >> `pause/resume` > > > >> >> > >>>> to all the instances or not? For example, we can define > the > > > >> >> semantics > > > >> >> > >> of > > > >> >> > >>>> the function as "you only need to call this function on > any > > of > > > >> the > > > >> >> > >>>> application's instances, and all instances would then > pause > > > (via > > > >> the > > > >> >> > >>>> rebalance error codes)", or as "you would call this > function > > > for > > > >> all > > > >> >> > >> the > > > >> >> > >>>> instances of an application". Which one are you referring > > to? > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> My initial intent is that one would call this function on > any > > > >> >> instances > > > >> >> > >> of > > > >> >> > >>> the application that one wishes to pause. This should > allow > > > more > > > >> >> > control > > > >> >> > >>> (in case one wanted to pause a portion of the instances). > On > > > the > > > >> >> other > > > >> >> > >>> hand, this approach would put more work on the implementer > to > > > >> >> > coordinate > > > >> >> > >>> calling pause or resume across instances. > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> If the other option is more suitable, happy to do that > > instead. > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>>> 3) With EOS, there's a transaction timeout which would > > > determine > > > >> how > > > >> >> > >>> long a > > > >> >> > >>>> transaction can stay idle before it's force-aborted on the > > > broker > > > >> >> > >> side. I > > > >> >> > >>>> think when a pause is issued, that means we'd need to > > > immediately > > > >> >> > >> commit > > > >> >> > >>>> the current transaction for EOS since we do not know how > > long > > > we > > > >> >> could > > > >> >> > >>>> pause for. Is that right? If yes could you please clarify > > > that in > > > >> >> the > > > >> >> > >> doc > > > >> >> > >>>> as well. > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> Good point. My intent is for pause() to wait for the next > > > >> iteration > > > >> >> > >>> through `runOnce()` and then only skip over the processing > > for > > > >> paused > > > >> >> > >> tasks > > > >> >> > >>> in `taskManager.process(numIterations, time)`. > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> Do commits live inside that call or do they live > > > across/outside of > > > >> >> it? > > > >> >> > >> In > > > >> >> > >>> the former case, I think there shouldn't be any issues with > > > EOS. > > > >> >> > >>> Otherwise, we may need to work through some details to get > > EOS > > > >> right. > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> Once we figure that out, I can update the KIP. > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> Thanks, > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> Jim > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> Guozhang > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 10:51 AM Jim Hughes > > > >> >> > >> <jhug...@confluent.io.invalid > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> wrote: > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>>> Hi all, > > > >> >> > >>>>> > > > >> >> > >>>>> I have written up a KIP for adding the ability to pause > and > > > >> resume > > > >> >> > >> the > > > >> >> > >>>>> processing of a topology in AK Streams. The KIP is here: > > > >> >> > >>>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=211882832 > > > >> >> > >>>>> > > > >> >> > >>>>> Thanks in advance for your feedback! > > > >> >> > >>>>> > > > >> >> > >>>>> Cheers, > > > >> >> > >>>>> > > > >> >> > >>>>> Jim > > > >> >> > >>>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>>> -- > > > >> >> > >>>> -- Guozhang > > > >> >> > >>>> > > > >> >> > >>> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -- > > > >> > -- Guozhang > > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Guozhang > > >
