Jun,
20/21. I was also wondering about a "migration" record. In addition to the
scenario you mentioned, we also need a way to prevent the cluster from
re-entering the dual write mode after the migration has been finalized. I
could see this happening inadvertently via a change in some configuration
management system. How about we add a record that marks the beginning and
end of the dual-write mode. The first occurrence of the record could be
included in the metadata transaction when we migrate data from ZK.
With this, the active controller would decide whether to enter dual write
mode, finalize the migration based, or fail based on:
* Metadata log state
* It's own configuration ("kafka.metadata.migration.enable",
"zookeeper.connect", etc)
* The other controllers configuration (via ApiVersionsResponse)
WDYT?
22. Since we will need the fencing anyways as a safe-guard, then I agree
would could skip the registration of KRaft brokers in ZK to simply things a
bit.
Thanks,
David
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 5:11 PM Jun Rao <j...@confluent.io.invalid> wrote:
> Hi, David,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> 20/21. Relying upon the presence of ZK configs to determine whether the
> KRaft controller is in a dual write mode seems a bit error prone. If
> someone accidentally adds a ZK configuration to a brand new KRaft cluster,
> ideally it shouldn't cause the controller to get into a weird state. Have
> we considered storing the migration state in a metadata record?
>
> 22. If we have the broker fencing logic, do we need to write the broker
> registration path in ZK for KRaft brokers at all?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jun
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 1:02 PM David Arthur
> <david.art...@confluent.io.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Jun,
> >
> > 20/21. A KRaft controller will recover the migration state by reading the
> > "/migration" ZNode. If the migration enable config is set, and the ZK
> > migration is complete, it will enter the dual-write mode. Before an
> > operator can decommission ZK, they will need to finalize the migration
> > which involves removing the migration config and the ZK config. I'll
> > clarify this in the KIP.
> >
> > 22. Yea, we could see an incorrect broker ID during that window. If we
> > ended up with a state where we saw a ZK broker ID that conflicted with a
> > KRaft broker ID, we would need to fence one of them. I would probably opt
> > to fence the KRaft broker in that case since broker registration and
> > fencing is more robust in KRaft. Hopefully this is a rare case.
> >
> > 26. Sounds good.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > David
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 1:34 PM Jun Rao <j...@confluent.io.invalid>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, David,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply. A few more comments.
> > >
> > > 20/21. Using a tagged field in ApiVersionRequest could work. Related to
> > > this, how does a KRaft controller know that it's in the dual write
> mode?
> > > Does it need to read the /controller path from ZK? After the migration,
> > > people may have the ZK cluster decommissioned, but still have the ZK
> > > configs left in the KRaft controller. Will this cause the KRaft
> > controller
> > > to be stuck because it doesn't know which mode it is in?
> > >
> > > 22. Using the ephemeral node matches the current ZK-based broker
> behavior
> > > better. However, it leaves a window for incorrect broker registration
> to
> > > sneak in during KRaft controller failover.
> > >
> > > 26. Then, we could just remove Broker Registration in that section.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Jun
> > >
> > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 2:21 PM David Arthur
> > > <david.art...@confluent.io.invalid> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jun
> > > >
> > > > 20/21 It could definitely cause problems if we failover to a
> controller
> > > > without "kafka.metadata.migration.enable". The only mechanism I know
> of
> > > for
> > > > controllers to learn things about one another is ApiVersions. We
> > > currently
> > > > use this for checking support for "metadata.version" (in KRaft mode).
> > We
> > > > could add a "zk.migration" feature flag that's enabled on a
> controller
> > > only
> > > > if the config is set. Another possibility would be a tagged field on
> > > > ApiVersionResponse that indicated if the config was set. Both seem
> > > somewhat
> > > > inelegant. I think a tagged field would be a bit simpler (and
> arguably
> > > less
> > > > hacky).
> > > >
> > > > For 20, we could avoid entering the migration state unless the whole
> > > quorum
> > > > had the field present in their NodeApiVersions. For 21, we could
> avoid
> > > > leaving the migration state unless the whole quorum did not have the
> > > field
> > > > in their NodeApiVersions. Do you think this would be sufficient?
> > > >
> > > > 22. Right, we need to write the broker info back to ZK just as a
> > > safeguard
> > > > against incorrect broker IDs getting registered into ZK. I was
> thinking
> > > > these would be persistent nodes, but it's probably fine to make them
> > > > ephemeral and have the active KRaft controller keep them up to date.
> > > >
> > > > 23. Right. When the broker comes up as a KRaft broker, it's old
> > > > /brokers/ids ZNode will be gone and it will register itself with the
> > > KRaft
> > > > controller. The controller will know that it is now in KRaft mode and
> > > will
> > > > stop sending it the old RPCs.
> > > >
> > > > 24. Ok, I'll add these
> > > >
> > > > 25. I realize now the "/controller_epoch" node is already persistent.
> > It
> > > > should be sufficient to remove the "/controller" node to trigger an
> > > > election.
> > > >
> > > > 26. Hmm, not sure, but I don't think it uses watches. KafkaServer
> > > registers
> > > > the broker info and later loads all brokers in the cluster to check
> > that
> > > > the endpoints don't conflict. Things that do use watches are dynamic
> > > > configs, ACLs, and some others (listed in the KIP).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 4:26 PM David Arthur <
> > david.art...@confluent.io>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Luke and Andrew, thanks for taking a look!
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the names of the state machine in the KIP aren't the best.
> > I'll
> > > > > try to improve that section in general.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. "MigrationReady" is probably better named "MigratingFromZk" or
> > > > > something. It's meant to be the state when the KRaft controller is
> > > > actively
> > > > > migrating the data out of ZK. This happens after we have detected
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > cluster is eligible and before we enter the dual write mode.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. "MigrationActive" should probably be called "BrokerMigration".
> > > > > Transitioning to "MigrationFinished" can happen automatically when
> > all
> > > > the
> > > > > known ZK brokers have been migrated. Since we don't have permanent
> > > > > registrations of ZK brokers, we can use the partition assignments
> as
> > a
> > > > > proxy for this.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. A metric for unready brokers makes sense. We can also log a
> > message
> > > on
> > > > > the controller when it tries to start the migration
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. The MetadataType metric is meant to help see this. E.g., some
> > > brokers
> > > > > would have MetadataType=ZK, some would have MetadataType=Dual
> > > > >
> > > > > 5. On ZK brokers, not having this config set would prevent the new
> > > broker
> > > > > registration data from being written to ZK. This means the KRaft
> > > > controller
> > > > > won't send RPCs to it. If a broker has been migrated to KRaft
> > already,
> > > > I'm
> > > > > not sure there is any harm in removing this config. If we decide
> that
> > > we
> > > > > need to guarantee that KRaft brokers have this config set during
> the
> > > > > migration, we can include it in the broker registration that's sent
> > to
> > > > > KRaft. This would let the controller keep that broker fenced.
> > > > >
> > > > > 6. Once the KRaft controller takes leadership, the ZK controller
> > won't
> > > be
> > > > > active any more and will stop reporting the MigrationState metric.
> > > > >
> > > > > 7. The "Dual" MetadataType is reported by brokers running in KRaft
> > mode
> > > > > when the migration enable config is set. I think the controller
> > should
> > > > also
> > > > > report this, not just the brokers. I'll clarify in the KIP.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew:
> > > > >
> > > > > > How will the code get all the ZooKeeper config? Will it do some
> > sort
> > > of
> > > > > scan of the ZooKeeper data store? ... Do we need to do anything
> > special
> > > > to
> > > > > make sure we get all data from ZooKeeper?
> > > > >
> > > > > With a few exceptions, all data written to ZK by Kafka happens on
> the
> > > > > controller (single writer principle). In our migration code, we can
> > > > > unconditionally update the "/controller" and "/controller_epoch"
> > ZNodes
> > > > and
> > > > > effectively force the migration component to gain leadership of the
> > ZK
> > > > > controller. Once this happens, we don't expect any data to be
> written
> > > to
> > > > > ZK, so we can read it iteratively without worrying about any
> > concurrent
> > > > > writes.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the linearizable thing, I believe this just means that reads
> > may
> > > > be
> > > > > served by a quorum follower which has stale data. We'll be reading
> > from
> > > > ZK
> > > > > the same way the ZK controller does, so I think we will be fine
> > > regarding
> > > > > consistency. If we wanted to be extra careful, we could add a delay
> > > prior
> > > > > to iterating through the znodes to give partitioned ZK followers a
> > > chance
> > > > > to get kicked out of the quorum. I don't think we'll need that
> though
> > > > >
> > > > > > What happens if we commit the transaction then fail right after
> > that
> > > > and
> > > > > restart?
> > > > >
> > > > > If we commit the "migration" transaction to the metadata log, it
> > won't
> > > be
> > > > > a problem if we failover or restart. We can recover our state based
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > metadata log and what exists in ZK. If we see a migration
> transaction
> > > in
> > > > > the kraft log, but no "/migration" ZNode, we'll know we failed
> before
> > > > > writing to ZK. If we see a partial transaction in the log, then we
> > can
> > > > > abort it and restart the migration.
> > > > >
> > > > > > This sort of leads to me wondering if we will/should check the
> > > metadata
> > > > > log state before doing the migration? That could also catch
> mistakes
> > > such
> > > > > as if a KRaft quorum is used that already had some metadata which I
> > > > assume
> > > > > we want to prevent.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, we should check that the metadata log is empty before
> > attempting a
> > > > > migration (perhaps excepting the bootstrap metadata -- need to
> think
> > on
> > > > > that one still).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 8:57 AM Andrew Grant
> > > <agr...@confluent.io.invalid
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hey David,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks for the KIP. I had a few small questions.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> “The ZK data migration will copy the existing ZK data into the
> KRaft
> > > > >> metadata log and establish the new KRaft active controller as the
> > > active
> > > > >> controller from a ZK perspective.”
> > > > >>
> > > > >> How will the code get all the ZooKeeper config? Will it do some
> sort
> > > of
> > > > >> scan of the ZooKeeper data store? Also I’m not a ZooKeeper expert
> > but
> > > > per
> > > > >> https://zookeeper.apache.org/doc/current/zookeeperInternals.html
> > > “Read
> > > > >> operations in ZooKeeper are *not linearizable* since they can
> return
> > > > >> potentially stale data.” Do we need to do anything special to make
> > > sure
> > > > we
> > > > >> get all data from ZooKeeper?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> “For the initial migration, the controller will utilize KIP-868
> > > Metadata
> > > > >> Transactions
> > > > >> <
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-868+Metadata+Transactions
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> write all of the ZK metadata in a single transaction. If the
> > > controller
> > > > >> fails before this transaction is finalized, the next active
> > controller
> > > > >> will
> > > > >> abort the transaction and restart the migration process.” What
> > happens
> > > > if
> > > > >> we commit the transaction then fail right after that and restart?
> > This
> > > > >> sort
> > > > >> of leads to me wondering if we will/should check the metadata log
> > > state
> > > > >> before doing the migration? That could also catch mistakes such as
> > if
> > > a
> > > > >> KRaft quorum is used that already had some metadata which I assume
> > we
> > > > want
> > > > >> to prevent.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> For the Test Plan section do you think it’s worth calling out
> > > > performance
> > > > >> testing migrations of ZooKeeper deployments that have “large”
> > amounts
> > > of
> > > > >> metadata?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Andrew
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 3:20 AM Luke Chen <show...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > Hi David,
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thanks for the good and complicated proposal! :)
> > > > >> > Some questions:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 1. "MigrationReady" state: The KIP said:
> > > > >> > The KRaft quorum has been started
> > > > >> > I don't think we'll automatically enter this state after KRaft
> > > quorum
> > > > >> > started, do we?
> > > > >> > I think KRaft active controller should take over leadership by
> > > > writing a
> > > > >> > znode in /controller path before we entering this sate, is that
> > > > correct?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 2. "MigrationActive" state: the KIP said:
> > > > >> > ZK state has been migrated, controller is in dual-write mode,
> > > brokers
> > > > >> are
> > > > >> > being restarted in KRaft mode
> > > > >> > What confuses me is the last part: "brokers are being restarted
> in
> > > > KRaft
> > > > >> > mode".
> > > > >> > How could we detect brokers are being restarted in KRaft mode?
> Old
> > > ZK
> > > > >> > broker is removed and new KRaft broker is up within N minutes?
> > > > >> > I think we don't have to rely on the condition "brokers are
> being
> > > > >> restarted
> > > > >> > in KRaft mode" to enter this state.
> > > > >> > "brokers are being restarted in KRaft mode" should be a process
> > > > happened
> > > > >> > between "MigrationActive" and "MigrationFinished". Does that
> make
> > > > sense?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 3. When "Zookeeper" mode trying to enter "MigrationEligible", if
> > > there
> > > > >> is a
> > > > >> > cluster with tens of brokers, how could users know why this
> > cluster
> > > > >> cannot
> > > > >> > be in "MigrationEligible" state, yet? Check that znode manually
> > one
> > > by
> > > > >> one?
> > > > >> > Or do we plan to create a tool to help them? Or maybe expose the
> > > > >> "unready
> > > > >> > ZK brokers" metrics?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 4. Same for "MigrationActive" entering "MigrationFinished"
> state.
> > > > Since
> > > > >> > that will be some process for restarting ZK broker into KRaft
> > broker
> > > > >> one by
> > > > >> > one, could we expose the "remaining ZK brokers" as metrics?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 5. When users are in
> > > > >> "MigrationReady"/"MigrationActive"/"MigrationFinished"
> > > > >> > states, and they accidentally change the KRaft controller
> config:
> > > > >> > "kafka.metadata.migration.enable"
> > > > >> > to false. What will happen to this cluster? No dual-write for
> it?
> > > Will
> > > > >> we
> > > > >> > have any protection for it?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 6. About the "MigrationState" metric:
> > > > >> > The "ZooKeeper" and "MigrationEligible" is reported by ZK
> > > controller,
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > the rest of states are reported by KRaft controller --> makes
> > sense
> > > > to
> > > > >> me.
> > > > >> > One question from it is, when KRaft controller takes over the
> > > > leadership
> > > > >> > from ZK controller, what will the "MigrationState" value in old
> ZK
> > > > >> > controller? keep in "MigrationEligible" doesn't make sense. Will
> > > there
> > > > >> be a
> > > > >> > empty or null state?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > 7. About the "MetadataType" metric:
> > > > >> > An enumeration of: ZooKeeper (1), Dual (2), KRaft (3). Each
> broker
> > > > >> reports
> > > > >> > this.
> > > > >> > I don't know how we could map the migration state to these 3
> > types.
> > > > >> > What is the metadataType when cluster in "MigrationReady" state?
> > > Still
> > > > >> > Zookeeper?
> > > > >> > When will brokers enter Dual type?
> > > > >> > This is unclear in the KIP.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Thank you.
> > > > >> > Luke
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 11:33 PM David Arthur
> > > > >> > <david.art...@confluent.io.invalid> wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > Igor, thanks for taking a look! Since JBOD in KRaft is still
> > under
> > > > >> > > discussion and not likely to land before the ZK migration, I
> > think
> > > > >> we'll
> > > > >> > > need to defer it. For migrating JBOD clusters from ZK to
> KRaft,
> > > > we'll
> > > > >> > also
> > > > >> > > need to address the log dir failure mechanism which currently
> > > uses a
> > > > >> > > special ZNode written to by the brokers. There is an old KIP
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-589+Add+API+to+update+Replica+state+in+Controller
> > > > >> > > which proposes a new RPC to move that ZK write to the
> > controller,
> > > > but
> > > > >> I'm
> > > > >> > > not sure if that's the approach we'll want to take. I read
> > through
> > > > the
> > > > >> > > discussion over in KIP-858 and it sounds like there are some
> > good
> > > > >> ideas
> > > > >> > > there.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > To answer your question more directly, migrating ZK clusters
> > using
> > > > >> JBOD
> > > > >> > is
> > > > >> > > out of scope for this KIP. It might be possible to stop using
> > JBOD
> > > > >> using
> > > > >> > > reassignments, but I'm not sure about that.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > -David
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:17 PM Igor Soarez <i...@soarez.me>
> > wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > > Hi David,
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Thanks for the KIP, this is very exciting!
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > How does JBOD relate to this work? KRaft mode doesn't yet
> > > support
> > > > >> > > > configuring brokers with multiple log directories. If the
> > > brokers
> > > > in
> > > > >> > the
> > > > >> > > > existing cluster are configured with multiple log dirs, does
> > the
> > > > >> > > migration
> > > > >> > > > imply that the existing brokers need to drop use of that
> > > feature?
> > > > >> Or is
> > > > >> > > > there some way to upgrade them later?
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > --
> > > > >> > > > Igor
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022, at 10:07 PM, David Arthur wrote:
> > > > >> > > > > I've updated the KIP with the following changes (the
> > > confluence
> > > > >> diff
> > > > >> > is
> > > > >> > > > not
> > > > >> > > > > helpful here since i rearranged some things)
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > * Added ZooKeeperBlockingKRaftMillis metric
> > > > >> > > > > * Added section on new broker registration JSON
> > > > >> > > > > * Removed section on MigrationCheck RPC
> > > > >> > > > > * Added change to UpdateMetadataRequest
> > > > >> > > > > * Added section "Additional ZK Broker Configs" (includes
> > > configs
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > > > connect
> > > > >> > > > > to KRaft quorum)
> > > > >> > > > > * Added section on "Incompatible Brokers" under Failure
> > Modes
> > > > >> > > > > * Clarified many things per this discussion thread
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > I realized we need the KRaft controller to pick the
> correct
> > > > >> > > > > "metadata.version" when initializing the migration. I
> > included
> > > > the
> > > > >> > IBP
> > > > >> > > > of a
> > > > >> > > > > broker in its registration data so the KRaft controller
> can
> > > > verify
> > > > >> > the
> > > > >> > > > IBP
> > > > >> > > > > and pick the correct "metadata.version" when starting the
> > > > >> migration.
> > > > >> > > > > Otherwise, we could inadvertently downgrade the
> > > > >> IBP/metadata.version
> > > > >> > as
> > > > >> > > > > part of the migration.
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > I also added "clusterId" to the broker registration data
> so
> > > the
> > > > >> KRaft
> > > > >> > > > could
> > > > >> > > > > verify it.
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > -David
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2022 at 12:14 PM Colin McCabe <
> > > > cmcc...@apache.org
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022, at 11:39, Jun Rao wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> > Hi, Colin,
> > > > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> > 10. "That all goes away in the new mode, and we just
> have
> > > > some
> > > > >> > code
> > > > >> > > > which
> > > > >> > > > >> > analyzes __cluster_metadata and reflects it in 1)
> updates
> > > to
> > > > ZK
> > > > >> > and
> > > > >> > > 2)
> > > > >> > > > >> > messages sent out to brokers."
> > > > >> > > > >> > Hmm, I am not sure it's that simple. Some of the
> > complexity
> > > > of
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> ZK-based
> > > > >> > > > >> > controller are (1) using the pipelining approach to
> write
> > > to
> > > > ZK
> > > > >> > for
> > > > >> > > > >> better
> > > > >> > > > >> > throughput and using conditional writes for
> correctness;
> > > (2)
> > > > >> > sending
> > > > >> > > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> > proper LeaderAndIsr and UpdateMetadata requests. For
> > > example,
> > > > >> > during
> > > > >> > > > >> > controller failover, the full metadata needs to be sent
> > > while
> > > > >> > during
> > > > >> > > > >> > individual broker failure, only some of the metadata
> > needs
> > > to
> > > > >> be
> > > > >> > > > updated.
> > > > >> > > > >> > The controlled shutdown handling sometimes uses
> > > > >> StopReplicaRequest
> > > > >> > > > and
> > > > >> > > > >> > some other times uses LeaderAndIsrRequest. (3)
> triggering
> > > new
> > > > >> > events
> > > > >> > > > >> based
> > > > >> > > > >> > on the responses of LeaderAndIsr (e.g. for topic
> > deletion).
> > > > >> Some
> > > > >> > of
> > > > >> > > > those
> > > > >> > > > >> > complexity could be re-implemented in a more efficient
> > way,
> > > > >> but we
> > > > >> > > > need
> > > > >> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > > > >> > be really careful not to generate regression. Some of
> the
> > > > other
> > > > >> > > > >> complexity
> > > > >> > > > >> > just won't go away. Reimplementing all those logic for
> > the
> > > 30
> > > > >> or
> > > > >> > so
> > > > >> > > > >> events
> > > > >> > > > >> > in the ZK-based controller is possible, but seems a bit
> > > > >> daunting
> > > > >> > and
> > > > >> > > > >> risky.
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> Hi Jun,
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> Thanks for the response. I agree that there is some work
> > > here
> > > > >> but I
> > > > >> > > > don't
> > > > >> > > > >> think it's as bad as it might seem. Most of the code for
> > > > writing
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > ZK
> > > > >> > > > can
> > > > >> > > > >> be reused from the old controller. We should at least
> > > evaluate
> > > > >> using
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> old ControllerChannelManager as well. I don't know if
> we'll
> > > end
> > > > >> up
> > > > >> > > > doing it
> > > > >> > > > >> or not but it's a possibility. (The main reason to not do
> > it
> > > is
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> response handling will be a bit different)
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> The question of what to do during a controller failover
> is
> > an
> > > > >> > > > interesting
> > > > >> > > > >> one. Technically, we should be able to continue sending
> > > > >> incremental
> > > > >> > > > updates
> > > > >> > > > >> to the legacy nodes, for the same reason we can in KRaft
> > > mode.
> > > > >> > > However,
> > > > >> > > > >> probably we should just copy what ZK mode does and send
> > them
> > > a
> > > > >> full
> > > > >> > > > >> metadata update. This will allow us to have an easy way
> to
> > > > handle
> > > > >> > > > >> divergences caused by lost RPCs by changing the
> controller
> > > > (just
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > we
> > > > >> > > > do
> > > > >> > > > >> in ZK mode, unfortunately). I suppose we should document
> > this
> > > > in
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > KIP...
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> I agree controlled shutdown is tricky to get just right.
> I
> > > > >> suppose
> > > > >> > > this
> > > > >> > > > is
> > > > >> > > > >> a case where the RPCs we send out are not purely "fire
> and
> > > > >> forget";
> > > > >> > we
> > > > >> > > > have
> > > > >> > > > >> to listen for the response. But that can be done in an
> > > > >> event-based
> > > > >> > > way.
> > > > >> > > > >> Controlled shutdown is also probably the last thing we'll
> > > > >> implement
> > > > >> > > > once we
> > > > >> > > > >> have the basic lift and shift.
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> Topic deletion is another annoying thing. I wonder if we
> > > could
> > > > >> just
> > > > >> > > > delete
> > > > >> > > > >> immediately here and skip the complexity of implementing
> > > > >> "deleting
> > > > >> > > > state."
> > > > >> > > > >> Topic IDs will exist in IBP 3.4, in both ZK and KRaft
> mode,
> > > so
> > > > it
> > > > >> > > > should be
> > > > >> > > > >> OK, right?
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> best,
> > > > >> > > > >> Colin
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> > Jun
> > > > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:29 AM Colin McCabe <
> > > > >> cmcc...@apache.org>
> > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2022, at 11:44, Jun Rao wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > Hi, Colin,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > Thanks for the reply.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > 10. This is a bit on the implementation side. If you
> > > look
> > > > at
> > > > >> > the
> > > > >> > > > >> existing
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > ZK-based controller, most of the logic is around
> > > > >> maintaining an
> > > > >> > > > >> in-memory
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > state of all the resources (broker, topic,
> partition,
> > > > etc),
> > > > >> > > > >> >> reading/writing
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > to ZK, sending LeaderAndIsr and UpdateMetadata
> > requests
> > > > and
> > > > >> > > > handling
> > > > >> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > responses to brokers. So we need all that logic in
> the
> > > > dual
> > > > >> > write
> > > > >> > > > >> mode.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> One
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > option is to duplicate all that logic in some new
> > code.
> > > > This
> > > > >> > can
> > > > >> > > > be a
> > > > >> > > > >> bit
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > error prone and makes the code a bit harder to
> > maintain
> > > if
> > > > >> we
> > > > >> > > need
> > > > >> > > > to
> > > > >> > > > >> fix
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > some critical issues in ZK-based controllers.
> Another
> > > > >> option is
> > > > >> > > to
> > > > >> > > > try
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > reusing the existing code in the ZK-based
> controller.
> > > For
> > > > >> > > example,
> > > > >> > > > we
> > > > >> > > > >> >> could
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > start the EventManager in the ZK-based controller,
> but
> > > let
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > KRaft
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > controller ingest new events. This has its own
> > > challenges:
> > > > >> (1)
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> existing
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > logic only logs ZK failures and doesn't expose them
> to
> > > the
> > > > >> > > caller;
> > > > >> > > > (2)
> > > > >> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > existing logic may add new events to the queue
> itself
> > > and
> > > > we
> > > > >> > > > probably
> > > > >> > > > >> >> need
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > to think through how this is coordinated with the
> > KRaft
> > > > >> > > controller;
> > > > >> > > > >> (3)
> > > > >> > > > >> >> it
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > registers some ZK listeners unnecessarily (may not
> be
> > a
> > > > big
> > > > >> > > > concern).
> > > > >> > > > >> So
> > > > >> > > > >> >> we
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > need to get around those issues somehow. I am
> > wondering
> > > if
> > > > >> we
> > > > >> > > have
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > considered both options and which approach we are
> > > leaning
> > > > >> > towards
> > > > >> > > > for
> > > > >> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > implementation.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> Yes, this is a good question. My take is that a big
> part
> > > of
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> complexity
> > > > >> > > > >> >> in the old controller code results from the fact that
> we
> > > use
> > > > >> ZK
> > > > >> > as
> > > > >> > > a
> > > > >> > > > >> >> multi-writer database for propagating information
> > between
> > > > >> > different
> > > > >> > > > >> >> components. So in the old controller, every write to
> ZK
> > > > needs
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > be
> > > > >> > > > >> >> structured as a compare and swap to be fully correct.
> > > Every
> > > > >> time
> > > > >> > we
> > > > >> > > > get
> > > > >> > > > >> >> notified about something, it's usually in the form of
> > > "this
> > > > >> znode
> > > > >> > > > >> changed"
> > > > >> > > > >> >> which prompts a full reload of part of the data in ZK
> > > (which
> > > > >> > itself
> > > > >> > > > has
> > > > >> > > > >> >> multiple parts, loading, deserializing, reconciling,
> > etc.)
> > > > >> That
> > > > >> > all
> > > > >> > > > goes
> > > > >> > > > >> >> away in the new mode, and we just have some code which
> > > > >> analyzes
> > > > >> > > > >> >> __cluster_metadata and reflects it in 1) updates to ZK
> > and
> > > > 2)
> > > > >> > > > messages
> > > > >> > > > >> sent
> > > > >> > > > >> >> out to brokers.
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> This is pretty decoupled from the other logic in
> > > > >> QuorumController
> > > > >> > > and
> > > > >> > > > >> >> should be easy to unit test, since the same inputs
> from
> > > the
> > > > >> log
> > > > >> > > > always
> > > > >> > > > >> >> produce the same output in ZK. Basically, ZK is
> > write-only
> > > > for
> > > > >> > us,
> > > > >> > > > we do
> > > > >> > > > >> >> not read it (with the big exception of broker
> > registration
> > > > >> > znodes)
> > > > >> > > > and I
> > > > >> > > > >> >> think that will greatly simplify things.
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> So I think dual-write mode as described here will be
> > > > >> > substantially
> > > > >> > > > >> simpler
> > > > >> > > > >> >> than trying to run part or all of the old controller
> in
> > > > >> > parallel. I
> > > > >> > > > do
> > > > >> > > > >> >> think we will reuse a bunch of the serialization /
> > > > >> > deserialization
> > > > >> > > > code
> > > > >> > > > >> for
> > > > >> > > > >> >> znodes and possibly the code for communicating with
> ZK.
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> best,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> Colin
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > 14. Good point and make sense.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > Jun
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> > On Wed, Oct 12, 2022 at 3:27 PM Colin McCabe <
> > > > >> > cmcc...@apache.org
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Hi Jun,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Thanks for taking a look. I can answer some
> questions
> > > > here
> > > > >> > > > because I
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> collaborated on this a bit, and David is on
> vacation
> > > for
> > > > a
> > > > >> few
> > > > >> > > > days.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, at 14:41, Jun Rao wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > Hi, David,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > Thanks for the KIP. A few comments below.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > 10. It's still not very clear to me how the KRaft
> > > > >> controller
> > > > >> > > > works
> > > > >> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > dual writes mode to KRaft log and ZK when the
> > brokers
> > > > >> still
> > > > >> > > run
> > > > >> > > > in
> > > > >> > > > >> ZK
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> mode.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > Does the KRaft controller run a ZK based
> controller
> > > in
> > > > >> > > parallel
> > > > >> > > > or
> > > > >> > > > >> do
> > > > >> > > > >> >> we
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > derive what needs to be written to ZK based on
> > KRaft
> > > > >> > > controller
> > > > >> > > > >> logic?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> We derive what needs to be written to ZK based on
> > KRaft
> > > > >> > > controller
> > > > >> > > > >> >> logic.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > I am also not sure how the KRaft controller
> handles
> > > > >> broker
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > registration/deregistration, since brokers are
> > still
> > > > >> running
> > > > >> > > in
> > > > >> > > > ZK
> > > > >> > > > >> >> mode
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> and
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > are not heartbeating to the KRaft controller.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> The new controller will listen for broker
> > registrations
> > > > >> under
> > > > >> > > > >> /brokers.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> This is the only znode watch that the new
> controller
> > > will
> > > > >> do.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> We did consider changing how ZK-based broker
> > > registration
> > > > >> > > worked,
> > > > >> > > > >> but it
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> just ended up being too much work for not enough
> > gain.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > 12. "A new set of nodes will be provisioned to
> host
> > > the
> > > > >> > > > controller
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> quorum."
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > I guess we don't support starting the KRaft
> > > controller
> > > > >> > quorum
> > > > >> > > on
> > > > >> > > > >> >> existing
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > brokers. It would be useful to make that clear.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Agreed
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > 13. "Once the quorum is established and a leader
> is
> > > > >> elected,
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> controller
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > will check the state of the cluster using the
> > > > >> MigrationCheck
> > > > >> > > > RPC."
> > > > >> > > > >> How
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> does
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > the quorum controller detect other brokers? Does
> > the
> > > > >> > > controller
> > > > >> > > > >> node
> > > > >> > > > >> >> need
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > to be configured with ZK connection string? If
> so,
> > it
> > > > >> would
> > > > >> > be
> > > > >> > > > >> useful
> > > > >> > > > >> >> to
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > document the additional configs that the quorum
> > > > >> controller
> > > > >> > > > needs to
> > > > >> > > > >> >> set.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Yes, the controllers monitor ZK for broker
> > > registrations,
> > > > >> as I
> > > > >> > > > >> mentioned
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> above. So they need zk.connect and the other ZK
> > > > connection
> > > > >> > > > >> >> configurations.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > 14. "In order to prevent further writes to ZK,
> the
> > > > first
> > > > >> > thing
> > > > >> > > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> new
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > KRaft quorum must do is take over leadership of
> the
> > > ZK
> > > > >> > > > controller.
> > > > >> > > > >> "
> > > > >> > > > >> >> The
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> ZK
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > controller processing changes to /controller
> update
> > > > >> > > > asynchronously.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> How
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > does the KRaft controller know when the ZK
> > controller
> > > > has
> > > > >> > > > resigned
> > > > >> > > > >> >> before
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > it can safely copy the ZK data?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> This should be done through
> > > > >> expectedControllerEpochZkVersion,
> > > > >> > > just
> > > > >> > > > >> like
> > > > >> > > > >> >> in
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> ZK mode, right? We should bump this epoch value so
> > that
> > > > any
> > > > >> > > writes
> > > > >> > > > >> from
> > > > >> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> old controller will not go through. I agree we
> should
> > > > spell
> > > > >> > this
> > > > >> > > > out
> > > > >> > > > >> in
> > > > >> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> KIP.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > 15. We have the following sentences. One says
> > > > >> ControllerId
> > > > >> > is
> > > > >> > > a
> > > > >> > > > >> random
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > KRaft broker and the other says it's the active
> > > > >> controller.
> > > > >> > > > Which
> > > > >> > > > >> one
> > > > >> > > > >> >> is
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > correct?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > "UpdateMetadata: for certain metadata changes,
> the
> > > > KRaft
> > > > >> > > > controller
> > > > >> > > > >> >> will
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > need to send UpdateMetadataRequests to the ZK
> > > brokers.
> > > > >> For
> > > > >> > the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > “ControllerId” field in this request, the
> > controller
> > > > >> should
> > > > >> > > > >> specify a
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > random KRaft broker."
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > "In the UpdateMetadataRequest sent by the KRaft
> > > > >> controller
> > > > >> > to
> > > > >> > > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> ZK
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > brokers, the ControllerId will point to the
> active
> > > > >> > controller
> > > > >> > > > which
> > > > >> > > > >> >> will
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> be
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > used for the inter-broker requests."
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Yeah, this seems like an error to me as well. A
> > random
> > > > >> value
> > > > >> > is
> > > > >> > > > not
> > > > >> > > > >> >> really
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> useful. Plus the text here is self-contradictory,
> as
> > > you
> > > > >> > pointed
> > > > >> > > > out.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> I suspect what we should do here is add a new
> field,
> > > > >> > > > >> KRaftControllerId,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> and populate it with the real controller ID, and
> > leave
> > > > the
> > > > >> old
> > > > >> > > > >> >> controllerId
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> field as -1. A ZK-based broker that sees this can
> > then
> > > > >> consult
> > > > >> > > its
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> controller.quorum.voters configuration to see where
> > it
> > > > >> should
> > > > >> > > send
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> controller-bound RPCs. That (static) configuration
> > lets
> > > > us
> > > > >> map
> > > > >> > > > >> between
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> controller ID and host:port.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> We should still keep our existing epoch logic for
> > > > deciding
> > > > >> > when
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> UpdateMetadataRequest / LeaderAndIsrRequests are
> > stale,
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > the
> > > > >> > > > >> caveat
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> that any kraft-based epoch should be treated as
> > greater
> > > > >> than
> > > > >> > any
> > > > >> > > > >> >> ZK-based
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> epoch. After all, the kraft epoch is coming from
> the
> > > > epoch
> > > > >> of
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> __cluster_metadata, whereas the ZK epoch comes from
> > ZK.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > 16. "Additionally, the controller must specify
> if a
> > > > >> broker
> > > > >> > in
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> “LiveBrokers”
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > is KRaft or ZK." Does that require any protocol
> > > changes
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> UpdateMetadata?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Yeah, I am also curious why the we need to care
> > whether
> > > > >> > brokers
> > > > >> > > > are
> > > > >> > > > >> ZK
> > > > >> > > > >> >> or
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> KRaft in UpdateMetadataRequest. We don't reveal
> this
> > to
> > > > >> > clients,
> > > > >> > > > so
> > > > >> > > > >> can
> > > > >> > > > >> >> we
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> just leave this out?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> best,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> Colin
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > Thanks,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > Jun
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 10:07 AM Mickael Maison <
> > > > >> > > > >> >> mickael.mai...@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> Hi David,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> Thanks for starting this important KIP.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> I've just taken a quick look so far but I've
> got a
> > > > >> couple
> > > > >> > of
> > > > >> > > > >> initial
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> questions:
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> 1) What happens if a non KRaft compatible broker
> > (or
> > > > >> with
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> kafka.metadata.migration.enable set to false)
> > joins
> > > > the
> > > > >> > > cluster
> > > > >> > > > >> after
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> the migration is triggered?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> 2) In the Failure Modes section you mention a
> > > scenario
> > > > >> > where
> > > > >> > > a
> > > > >> > > > >> write
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> to ZK fails. What happens when the divergence
> > limit
> > > is
> > > > >> > > > reached? Is
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> this a fatal condition? How much divergence
> should
> > > we
> > > > >> > allow?
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> Thanks,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> Mickael
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2022 at 12:20 AM David Arthur <
> > > > >> > > mum...@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > Hey folks, I wanted to get the ball rolling on
> > the
> > > > >> > > discussion
> > > > >> > > > >> for
> > > > >> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > ZooKeeper migration KIP. This KIP details how
> we
> > > > plan
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> > do
> > > > >> > > > an
> > > > >> > > > >> >> online
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > migration of metadata from ZooKeeper to KRaft
> as
> > > > well
> > > > >> as
> > > > >> > a
> > > > >> > > > >> rolling
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > upgrade of brokers to KRaft mode.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > The general idea is to keep KRaft and
> ZooKeeper
> > in
> > > > >> sync
> > > > >> > > > during
> > > > >> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > migration, so both types of brokers can exist
> > > > >> > > simultaneously.
> > > > >> > > > >> Then,
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > once everything is migrated and updated, we
> can
> > > turn
> > > > >> off
> > > > >> > > > >> ZooKeeper
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > writes.
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > This is a pretty complex KIP, so please take a
> > > look
> > > > :)
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-866+ZooKeeper+to+KRaft+Migration
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> >
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > Thanks!
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >> > David
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > >> > > > > -David
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > --
> > > > >> > > -David
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > -David
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > -David
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -David
> >
>
--
-David
