Hi Vicky, Thanks for your response!
I would just use numbers to refer to your comments. 1) Thanks for your response. Even I am not totally sure whether these should be supported via IQv2 or via store interface. That said, I wouldn't definitely qualify this as blocking the KIP for sure so we can live without it :) 2) Yeah if the 2 APIs for get have different semantics for timestampTo, then it could be confusing. I went through the link for temporal tables (TFS!) and I now get why the AS OF semantics would have it inclusive. I think part of the problem is that the name get on it's own is not as expressive as SQL. Can we name according to the semantics that you want to support like `getAsOf` or something like that? I am not sure if we do that in our codebase though. Maybe the experts can chime in. 3) hmm I would have named it `validUpto` But again not very picky about it. After going through the link and your KIP, it's a lot clearer to me. 4) I think delete(key) should be sufficient. With delete, we would stlll keep the older versions of the key right? Thanks! Sagar. On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 12:17 AM Victoria Xia <victoria....@confluent.io.invalid> wrote: > Thanks, Matthias and Sagar, for your comments! I've responded here for now, > and will update the KIP afterwards with the outcome of our discussions as > they resolve. > > ----------- Matthias's comments ----------- > > > (1) Why does the new store not extend KeyValueStore, but StateStore? > In the end, it's a KeyValueStore? > > A `VersionedKeyValueStore<K, V>` is not a `KeyValueStore<K, V>` because > many of the KeyValueStore methods would not make sense for a versioned > store. For example, `put(K key, V value)` is not meaningful for a versioned > store because the record needs a timestamp associated with it. > > A `VersionedKeyValueStore<K, V>` is more similar to a `KeyValueStore<K, > ValueAndTimestamp<V>>` (i.e., `TimestampedKeyValueStore<K, V>`), but some > of the TimestampedKeyValueStore methods are still problematic. For example, > what does it mean for `delete(K key)` to have return type > `ValueAndTimestamp<V>`? Does this mean that `delete(K key)` only deletes > (and returns) the latest record version for the key? Probably we want a > versioned store to have `delete(K key)` delete all record versions for the > given key, in which case the return type is better suited as an > iterator/collection of KeyValueTimestamp. `putIfAbsent(K key, > ValueAndTimestamp value)` also has ambiguous semantics for versioned stores > (i.e., what does it mean for the key/record to be "absent"). > > I agree that conceptually a versioned key-value store is just a key-value > store, though. In the future if we redesign the store interfaces, it'd be > great to unify them by having a more generic KeyValueStore interface that > allows for extra flexibility to support different types of key-value > stores, including versioned stores. (Or, if you can think of a way to > achieve this with the existing interfaces today, I'm all ears!) > > > (2) Should we have a ReadOnlyVersionedKeyValueStore? Even if we don't > want to support IQ in this KIP, it might be good to add this interface > right away to avoid complications for follow up KIPs? Or won't there by > any complications anyway? > > I don't think there will be complications for refactoring to add this > interface in the future. Refactoring out ReadOnlyVersionedKeyValueStore > from VersionedKeyValueStore would leave VersionedKeyValueStore unchanged > from the outside. > > Also, is it true that the ReadOnlyKeyValueStore interface is only used for > IQv1 and not IQv2? I think it's an open question as to whether we should > support IQv1 for versioned stores or only IQv2. If the latter, then maybe > we won't need the extra interface at all. > > > (3) Why do we not have a `delete(key)` method? I am ok with not > supporting all methods from existing KV-store, but a `delete(key)` seems > to be fundamentally to have? > > What do you think the semantics of `delete(key)` should be for versioned > stores? Should `delete(key)` delete (and return) all record versions for > the key? Or should we have `delete(key, timestamp)` which is equivalent to > `put(key, null, timestamp)` except with a return type to return > ValueAndTimestamp representing the record it replaced? > > If we have ready alignment on what the interface and semantics for > `delete(key)` should be, then adding it in this KIP sounds good. I just > didn't want the rest of the KIP to be hung up over additional interfaces, > given that we can always add extra interfaces in the future. > > > (4a) Do we need `get(key)`? It seems to be the same as `get(key, > MAX_VALUE)`? Maybe is good to have as syntactic sugar though? Just for > my own clarification (should we add something to the JavaDocs?). > > Correct, it is just syntactic sugar. I will add a clarification into the > Javadocs as you've suggested. > > > (4b) Should we throw an exception if a user queries out-of-bound > instead of returning `null` (in `get(key,ts)`)? > -> You put it into "rejected alternatives", and I understand your > argument. Would love to get input from others about this question > though. -- It seems we also return `null` for windowed stores, so maybe > the strongest argument is to align to existing behavior? Or do we have > case for which the current behavior is problematic? > > Sure; curious to hear what others think as well. > > > (4c) JavaDoc on `get(key,ts)` says: "(up to store implementation > discretion when this is the case)" -> Should we make it a stricter > contract such that the user can reason about it better (there is WIP to > make retention time a strict bound for windowed stores atm) > -> JavaDocs on `persistentVersionedKeyValueStore` seems to suggest a > strict bound, too. > > Ah, great question. I think the question boils down to: do we want to > require that all versioned stores (including custom user implementations) > use "history retention" to determine when to expire old record versions? > > Because the `persistentVersionedKeyValueStore(...)` method returns > instances of the provided RocksDB-based versioned store implementation, > which does use history retention for this purpose, that's why we can very > clearly say that for this store, `get(key, ts)` will return null if the > provided timestamp bound has fallen out of history retention. The reason I > left the `VersionedKeyValueStore#get(key, ts)` Javadoc more generic (i.e., > does not mention history retention) is because maybe a user implementing > their own custom store will choose a different expiry mechanism, e.g., keep > the three latest versions for each key regardless of how old the timestamps > are. > > If we want to require that all versioned stores use history retention in > order to determine when to expire old records, then I will certainly update > the Javadoc to clarify. This is already a requirement for DSL users because > the VersionedBytesStoreSupplier interface requires history retention to be > provided (in order for changelog topic configs to be properly set), so it's > just a question of whether we also want to require PAPI users to use > history retention too. I had a look at the existing window stores and > didn't see precedent for requiring all window stores have a standard > "retention time" concept for how long to keep windows, but if we want to > have a standard "history retention" concept for versioned stores we > certainly can. WDYT? > > > (5a) Do we need to expose `segmentInterval`? For windowed-stores, we > also use segments but hard-code it to two (it was exposed in earlier > versions but it seems not useful, even if we would be open to expose it > again if there is user demand). > > If we want to leave it out of this first KIP (and potentially expose it in > the future), that works for me. The performance benchmarks I ran suggest > that this parameter greatly impacts store performance though and is very > workload dependent. If a user reported poor performance using versioned > stores for their workload, this is the first parameter I would want to > tune. That said, metrics/observability for versioned stores (which would be > helpful for determining how this parameter should be adjusted) have been > deferred to a follow-up KIP, so perhaps that's reason to defer exposing > this parameter as well. > > > (5b) JavaDocs says: "Performance degrades as more record versions for > the same key are collected in a single segment. On the other hand, > out-of-order writes and reads which access older segments may slow down > if there are too many segments." -- Wondering if JavaDocs should make > any statements about expected performance? Seems to be an implementation > detail? > > I included this sentence to explain why a user might want to tune this > value / help guide how to think about the parameter, but if we want to > remove it entirely (per the discussion point above) then this Javadoc will > be removed with it. > > > (6) validTo timestamp is "exclusive", right? Ie, if I query > `get(key,ts[=validToV1])` I would get `null` or the "next" record v2 > with validFromV2=ts? > > I actually intended for it to be inclusive (will update the KIP). Do you > think exclusive is more intuitive? The reason I had inclusive in my mind is > because it's like a "AS OF <time>" query, which treats the time bound as > inclusive. > > > (7) The KIP says, that segments are stores in the same RocksDB -- for > this case, how are efficient deletes handled? For windowed-store, we can > just delete a full RocksDB. > > The way that multiple segments are represented in the same RocksDB is that > the RocksDB keys are prefixed with segment ID. An entire segment is deleted > with a single `deleteRange()` call to RocksDB. > > > (8) Rejected alternatives: you propose to not return the validTo > timestamp -- if we find it useful in the future to return it, would > there be a clean path to change it accordingly? > > With the current proposal, there's no clean path. If we think there's a > good chance we might want to do this in the future, then we should update > the proposed interfaces. > > The current proposed return type from `VersionedKeyValueStore<K, > V>#get(key, tsTo)` is `ValueAndTimestamp<V>`. There's no way to add a > second timestamp into `ValueAndTimestamp<V>`, which is why there's no clean > path to include validTo timestamp in the future under the existing > proposal. > > If we wanted to allow for including validTo timestamp in the future, we'd > instead update the return type to be a new `VersionedRecord<V>` object. > Today a `VersionedRecord<V>` could just include `value` and `timestamp`, > and in the future we could add `validTo` (names subject to change) into the > `VersionedRecord` as well. (It'd look a little strange for now since > VersionedRecord is the same as ValueAndTimestamp, but that seems fine.) > > If we choose to do this, I think we should also update the return type of > `VersionedKeyValueStore#get(key)` to be VersionedRecord as well, rather > than having one return TimestampAndValue while the other returns > VersionedRecord. > > ----------- Sagar's comments ----------- > > > 1) Did you consider adding a method similar to : > List<ValueAndTimeStamp<V>> get(K key, long from, long to)? > I think this could be useful considering that this > versioning scheme unlocks time travel at a key basis. WDYT? > > Yes, I do think this method is valuable. I think we will definitely want to > support time-range based queries at some point (hopefully soon), and likely > also key-range based queries (to achieve feature parity with existing > key-value stores). > > It's not immediately clear to me whether these types of queries should be > supported as part of the store interface or if they should only be > supported via the `query(...)` method for IQv2. (It's an open question as > to whether we should support IQv1 for versioned stores or only IQv2. A > benefit of IQv2 over IQv1 is that we won't need to add individual store > methods for each type of query, including for all wrapped store layers.) > > If we have clear non-IQ use cases for these methods (e.g., use cases within > processors), then they'll need to be added as part of the store interface > for sure. I'm leaning towards adding them as part of the store interface > but given the ambiguity here, it may be preferrable to defer to a follow-up > KIP. OTOH, if you think the versioned store interface as proposed in this > KIP is too bare bones to be useful, I'm open to adding it in now as well. > > > 2) I have a similar question as Matthias, about the timestampTo argument > when doing a get. Is it inclusive or exclusive? > > Same answer (and follow-up question) as above. Do you think it will be > confusing for `get(key, tsTo)` to use an inclusive time bound, while > `get(key, tsFrom, tsTo)` would use an exclusive tsTo time bound? Maybe we > should rename `get(key, tsFrom, tsTo)` to `getVersions(...)` or > `getRange(...)` in order to avoid confusion. > > > 3) validFrom sounds slightly confusing to me. It is essentially the > timestamp at which the record was inserted. validFrom makes it sound like > validTo which can keep changing based on new records while *from* is fixed. > WDYT? > > "It is essentially the timestamp at which the record was inserted" <-- Yes, > that's correct. > > I borrowed the "validFrom/validTo" terminology from temporal tables, e.g., > > https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/relational-databases/tables/temporal-tables?view=sql-server-ver16 > . > I don't believe the terms "validFrom" or "validTo" are currently exposed > anywhere in any of the user-facing interfaces (or Javadocs); I just needed > a way to refer to the concepts in the KIP. Hopefully this is a non-issue > (at least for now) as a result. Do you have a suggestion for terminology > that would've been less confusing? > > > 4) Even I think delete api should be supported. > > Makes sense. It'd be to get your input on the same follow-up questions I > asked Matthias above as well :) > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 4:25 AM Sagar <sagarmeansoc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Victoria, > > > > Thanks for the KIP. Seems like a very interesting idea! > > > > I have a couple of questions: > > > > 1) Did you consider adding a method similar to : > > List<ValueAndTimeStamp<V>> get(K key, long from, long to)? > > > > I think this could be useful considering that this > > versioning scheme unlocks time travel at a key basis. WDYT? > > > > 2) I have a similar question as Matthias, about the timestampTo argument > > when doing a get. Is it inclusive or exclusive? > > > > 3) validFrom sounds slightly confusing to me. It is essentially the > > timestamp at which the record was inserted. validFrom makes it sound like > > validTo which can keep changing based on new records while *from* is > fixed. > > WDYT? > > > > 4) Even I think delete api should be supported. > > > > Thanks! > > Sagar. > > > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 8:02 AM Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the KIP Victoria. Very well written! > > > > > > > > > Couple of questions (many might just require to add some more details > to > > > the KIP): > > > > > > (1) Why does the new store not extend KeyValueStore, but StateStore? > > > In the end, it's a KeyValueStore? > > > > > > (2) Should we have a ReadOnlyVersionedKeyValueStore? Even if we don't > > > want to support IQ in this KIP, it might be good to add this interface > > > right away to avoid complications for follow up KIPs? Or won't there by > > > any complications anyway? > > > > > > (3) Why do we not have a `delete(key)` method? I am ok with not > > > supporting all methods from existing KV-store, but a `delete(key)` > seems > > > to be fundamentally to have? > > > > > > (4a) Do we need `get(key)`? It seems to be the same as `get(key, > > > MAX_VALUE)`? Maybe is good to have as syntactic sugar though? Just for > > > my own clarification (should we add something to the JavaDocs?). > > > > > > (4b) Should we throw an exception if a user queries out-of-bound > > > instead of returning `null` (in `get(key,ts)`)? > > > -> You put it into "rejected alternatives", and I understand your > > > argument. Would love to get input from others about this question > > > though. -- It seems we also return `null` for windowed stores, so maybe > > > the strongest argument is to align to existing behavior? Or do we have > > > case for which the current behavior is problematic? > > > > > > (4c) JavaDoc on `get(key,ts)` says: "(up to store implementation > > > discretion when this is the case)" -> Should we make it a stricter > > > contract such that the user can reason about it better (there is WIP to > > > make retention time a strict bound for windowed stores atm) > > > -> JavaDocs on `persistentVersionedKeyValueStore` seems to suggest a > > > strict bound, too. > > > > > > (5a) Do we need to expose `segmentInterval`? For windowed-stores, we > > > also use segments but hard-code it to two (it was exposed in earlier > > > versions but it seems not useful, even if we would be open to expose it > > > again if there is user demand). > > > > > > (5b) JavaDocs says: "Performance degrades as more record versions for > > > the same key are collected in a single segment. On the other hand, > > > out-of-order writes and reads which access older segments may slow down > > > if there are too many segments." -- Wondering if JavaDocs should make > > > any statements about expected performance? Seems to be an > implementation > > > detail? > > > > > > (6) validTo timestamp is "exclusive", right? Ie, if I query > > > `get(key,ts[=validToV1])` I would get `null` or the "next" record v2 > > > with validFromV2=ts? > > > > > > (7) The KIP says, that segments are stores in the same RocksDB -- for > > > this case, how are efficient deletes handled? For windowed-store, we > can > > > just delete a full RocksDB. > > > > > > (8) Rejected alternatives: you propose to not return the validTo > > > timestamp -- if we find it useful in the future to return it, would > > > there be a clean path to change it accordingly? > > > > > > > > > -Matthias > > > > > > > > > On 11/16/22 9:57 PM, Victoria Xia wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > I have a proposal for introducing versioned state stores in Kafka > > > Streams. > > > > Versioned state stores are similar to key-value stores except they > can > > > > store multiple record versions for a single key. This KIP focuses on > > > > interfaces only in order to limit the scope of the KIP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-889%3A+Versioned+State+Stores > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Victoria > > > > > > > > > >
