Hi Becket, Thanks for the expatiation. Regarding : 1) The batch would be split when an RecordTooLargeException is received.
Lets say we sent the batch over the wire and received a RecordTooLargeException, how do we split it as once we add the message to the batch we loose the message level granularity. We will have to decompress, do deep iteration and split and again compress. right? This looks like a performance bottle neck in case of multi topic producers like mirror maker. Thanks, Mayuresh On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> wrote: > Hey Mayuresh, > > 1) The batch would be split when an RecordTooLargeException is received. > 2) Not lower the actual compression ratio, but lower the estimated > compression ratio "according to" the Actual Compression Ratio(ACR). > > An example, let's start with Estimated Compression Ratio (ECR) = 1.0. Say > the compression ratio of ACR is ~0.8, instead of letting the ECR dropped to > 0.8 very quickly, we only drop 0.001 every time when ACR < ECR. However, > once we see an ACR > ECR, we increment ECR by 0.05. If a > RecordTooLargeException is received, we reset the ECR back to 1.0 and split > the batch. > > Thanks, > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Mayuresh Gharat < > gharatmayures...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Becket, > > > > Seems like an interesting idea. > > I had couple of questions : > > 1) How do we decide when the batch should be split? > > 2) What do you mean by slowly lowering the "actual" compression ratio? > > An example would really help here. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mayuresh > > > > On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Hi Jay, > > > > > > Yeah, I got your point. > > > > > > I think there might be a solution which do not require adding a new > > > configuration. We can start from a very conservative compression ratio > > say > > > 1.0 and lower it very slowly according to the actual compression ratio > > > until we hit a point that we have to split a batch. At that point, we > > > exponentially back off on the compression ratio. The idea is somewhat > > like > > > TCP. This should help avoid frequent split. > > > > > > The upper bound of the batch size is also a little awkward today > because > > we > > > say the batch size is based on compressed size, but users cannot set it > > to > > > the max message size because that will result in oversized messages. > With > > > this change we will be able to allow the users to set the message size > to > > > close to max message size. > > > > > > However the downside is that there could be latency spikes in the > system > > in > > > this case due to the splitting, especially when there are many messages > > > need to be split at the same time. That could potentially be an issue > for > > > some users. > > > > > > What do you think about this approach? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Jay Kreps <j...@confluent.io> wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Becket, > > > > > > > > Yeah that makes sense. > > > > > > > > I agree that you'd really have to both fix the estimation (i.e. make > it > > > per > > > > topic or make it better estimate the high percentiles) AND have the > > > > recovery mechanism. If you are underestimating often and then paying > a > > > high > > > > recovery price that won't fly. > > > > > > > > I think you take my main point though, which is just that I hate to > > > exposes > > > > these super low level options to users because it is so hard to > explain > > > to > > > > people what it means and how they should set it. So if it is possible > > to > > > > make either some combination of better estimation and splitting or > > better > > > > tolerance of overage that would be preferrable. > > > > > > > > -Jay > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > @Dong, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the comments. The default behavior of the producer won't > > > > change. > > > > > If the users want to use the uncompressed message size, they > probably > > > > will > > > > > also bump up the batch size to somewhere close to the max message > > size. > > > > > This would be in the document. BTW the default batch size is 16K > > which > > > is > > > > > pretty small. > > > > > > > > > > @Jay, > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, we actually had debated quite a bit internally what is the > best > > > > > solution to this. > > > > > > > > > > I completely agree it is a bug. In practice we usually leave some > > > > headroom > > > > > to allow the compressed size to grow a little if the the original > > > > messages > > > > > are not compressible, for example, 1000 KB instead of exactly 1 MB. > > It > > > is > > > > > likely safe enough. > > > > > > > > > > The major concern for the rejected alternative is performance. It > > > largely > > > > > depends on how frequent we need to split a batch, i.e. how likely > the > > > > > estimation can go off. If we only need to the split work > > occasionally, > > > > the > > > > > cost would be amortized so we don't need to worry about it too > much. > > > > > However, it looks that for a producer with shared topics, the > > > estimation > > > > is > > > > > always off. As an example, consider two topics, one with > compression > > > > ratio > > > > > 0.6 the other 0.2, assuming exactly same traffic, the average > > > compression > > > > > ratio would be roughly 0.4, which is not right for either of the > > > topics. > > > > So > > > > > almost half of the batches (of the topics with 0.6 compression > ratio) > > > > will > > > > > end up larger than the configured batch size. When it comes to more > > > > topics > > > > > such as mirror maker, this becomes more unpredictable. To avoid > > > frequent > > > > > rejection / split of the batches, we need to configured the batch > > size > > > > > pretty conservatively. This could actually hurt the performance > > because > > > > we > > > > > are shoehorn the messages that are highly compressible to a small > > batch > > > > so > > > > > that the other topics that are not that compressible will not > become > > > too > > > > > large with the same batch size. At LinkedIn, our batch size is > > > configured > > > > > to 64 KB because of this. I think we may actually have better > > batching > > > if > > > > > we just use the uncompressed message size and 800 KB batch size. > > > > > > > > > > We did not think about loosening the message size restriction, but > > that > > > > > sounds a viable solution given that the consumer now can fetch > > > oversized > > > > > messages. One concern would be that on the broker side oversized > > > messages > > > > > will bring more memory pressure. With KIP-92, we may mitigate that, > > but > > > > the > > > > > memory allocation for large messages may not be very GC friendly. I > > > need > > > > to > > > > > think about this a little more. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:57 PM, Jay Kreps <j...@confluent.io> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Becket, > > > > > > > > > > > > I get the problem we want to solve with this, but I don't think > > this > > > is > > > > > > something that makes sense as a user controlled knob that > everyone > > > > > sending > > > > > > data to kafka has to think about. It is basically a bug, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > First, as a technical question is it true that using the > > uncompressed > > > > > size > > > > > > for batching actually guarantees that you observe the limit? I > > think > > > > that > > > > > > implies that compression always makes the messages smaller, > which i > > > > think > > > > > > usually true but is not guaranteed, right? e.g. if someone > encrypts > > > > their > > > > > > data which tends to randomize it and then enables compressesion, > it > > > > could > > > > > > slightly get bigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > I also wonder if the rejected alternatives you describe couldn't > be > > > > made > > > > > to > > > > > > work: basically try to be a bit better at estimation and recover > > when > > > > we > > > > > > guess wrong. I don't think the memory usage should be a problem: > > > isn't > > > > it > > > > > > the same memory usage the consumer of that topic would need? And > > > can't > > > > > you > > > > > > do the splitting and recompression in a streaming fashion? If we > an > > > > make > > > > > > the estimation rate low and the recovery cost is just ~2x the > > normal > > > > cost > > > > > > for that batch that should be totally fine, right? (It's > > technically > > > > true > > > > > > you might have to split more than once, but since you halve it > each > > > > time > > > > > I > > > > > > think should you get a number of halvings that is logarithmic in > > the > > > > miss > > > > > > size, which, with better estimation you'd hope would be super > duper > > > > > small). > > > > > > > > > > > > Alternatively maybe we could work on the other side of the > problem > > > and > > > > > try > > > > > > to make it so that a small miss on message size isn't a big > > problem. > > > I > > > > > > think original issue was that max size and fetch size were > tightly > > > > > coupled > > > > > > and the way memory in the consumer worked you really wanted fetch > > > size > > > > to > > > > > > be as small as possible because you'd use that much memory per > > > fetched > > > > > > partition and the consumer would get stuck if its fetch size > wasn't > > > big > > > > > > enough. I think we made some progress on that issue and maybe > more > > > > could > > > > > be > > > > > > done there so that a small bit of fuzziness around the size would > > not > > > > be > > > > > an > > > > > > issue? > > > > > > > > > > > > -Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Becket Qin < > becket....@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to start the discussion thread on KIP-126. The KIP > > > > propose > > > > > > > adding a new configuration to KafkaProducer to allow batching > > based > > > > on > > > > > > > uncompressed message size. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comments are welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The KIP wiki is following: > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP- > > > > > > > 126+-+Allow+KafkaProducer+to+batch+based+on+uncompressed+size > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -Regards, > > Mayuresh R. Gharat > > (862) 250-7125 > > > -- -Regards, Mayuresh R. Gharat (862) 250-7125
