I'm with Andreas here, another docuemtation besides the wiki and
scalate just turns into more problems,
not necessarily but last time the scalate documentation did :)

so +1 for integrating this special maven-plugin documentation into the
standard documentation, maybe some of
our scalate experts can do that :)

Additionally we need some migration documentation for the people who
already do the assembly stuff.

regards, Achim

2011/4/11 Andreas Pieber <[email protected]>:
> I expect that we can publish it similar to our scalate site, though
> I'm not sure if we really want to introduce another technology. While
> I see the reason that mvn site is especially useful for documenting
> mvn plugins I'm not sure if we want to include another way of
> documenting AND another problem during release. Maybe we can include
> the site output into the scalate output?
>
> Kind regards,
> Andreas
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:38 PM, David Jencks <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I didn't see where a smx assembly was being built so I spent a few minutes 
>> on plugin documentation.  I think running mvn site in 
>> tooling/karaf-maven-plugin produces a reasonably informative result.
>>
>> Are we publishing maven generated sites anywhere?  I'm not always sure about 
>> regular projects' maven sites but the generated plugin documentation is 
>> usually pretty useful and I think that people expect to find it.
>>
>> thanks
>> david jencks
>>
>> On Apr 9, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Achim Nierbeck wrote:
>>
>>> my comments in-line :)
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think I left out a step :-) and I'm not sure how people are currently 
>>>> packaging the extra files needed for a custom server.
>>>
>>> the way I used to do it was to configure a maven project for assembly
>>> and I configured all my extra bundles as dependency in this
>>> project, using the assembly plug-in for maven. First step was to extract
>>> the standard distro of Karaf, add some extra bundles
>>> add some extra config files, changed some config files skipped some
>>> config files of the original assembly.
>>>
>>>> I'm thinking that you would set up a kar project with all the extra files, 
>>>> configuration, etc as well as listing or including the bundles, so you can 
>>>> install e.g. servicemix on any karaf instance as a kar, and then also set 
>>>> up a karaf-assembly project that produces a custom distribution based on 
>>>> that kar as well as everything else you want in the server.
>>>
>>> This is a nice idea, and this way I probably don't need to edit the
>>> startup.properties anymore. I kind of like that.
>>> As I already stated we need some very good documentation to get our
>>> users into this boat :)
>>>
>>>> The framework and full kars I added to assemblies/features combined with 
>>>> the new assemblies are one example of this technique, but maybe I should 
>>>> try it out on e.g. servicemix also as an example.  Is it clear where the 
>>>> servicemix assembly is?
>>>
>>> For this you have to ask JB, he did the last release for ServiceMix.
>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> david jencks
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 9, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Achim Nierbeck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi David,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I assume you are talking about the instructions for custom distributions 
>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://karaf.apache.org/manual/2.2.0/developers-guide/custom-distribution.html
>>>>>>
>>>>> yes, exactly
>>>>>
>>>>>> The process described here is hideously complex compared to what I'm 
>>>>>> proposing.  To keep it available we need to keep the 
>>>>>> add-features-to-repo mojo.  If, after comparing equivalent old and new 
>>>>>> style karaf assembly projects, someone wants to keep it, fine.
>>>>> well, it might be complex but most persons I know a very aware of how to
>>>>> use the assembly plugin of maven on building a
>>>>> nice little distribution :)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Conceptually the main difference I see between old and new styles is 
>>>>>> that the old style relies on unpacking an existing distro whereas the 
>>>>>> new style currently asks you to copy the list of features and kars that 
>>>>>> were assembled into the existing distro.  I think I can set up an "uber 
>>>>>> feature" for each distro so there's only one feature going in, so in 
>>>>>> either style there would be exactly one artifact involved, but it might 
>>>>>> be a good idea to add an "unpack existing distro" mojo so the 
>>>>>> karaf-assembly packaging can also unpack something for you.  In this 
>>>>>> case I think the new style would be equivalent to the old style except 
>>>>>> you'd list the features to add as maven dependencies instead of 
>>>>>> configuring them in the k-m-p plugin configuration, and you' leave out 
>>>>>> 99% of the configuration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you tried setting up a project to do a new-style assembly?
>>>>> No I didn't yet, but will give it a try. I just realized this big change.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> regards, Achim
>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Achim Nierbeck wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all my comments in-line
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards, Achim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Karaf is complete atomic and standalone OSGi container.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It should run by itself (and it's still the case).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> full ack, for just using camel you don't need anything else. This just
>>>>>>> as a quick description on how I am using Karaf very often.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it's more logic for the projects to be build on top. Anyway,
>>>>>>>> I'm not against this new change as it could get life easy in the 
>>>>>>>> project.
>>>>>>>> David, did you launch a thread in the past on this mailing list, or
>>>>>>>> updated a wiki page describing this new philosophy ? Sorry if the
>>>>>>>> question is stupid, maybe I missed some messages, but I don't remember
>>>>>>>> lot of discussion on these changes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did see some mail-threads touching parts of this, but somehow I was
>>>>>>> missing the big picture beforehand.
>>>>>>> IMHO for me this move was quite fast and a better discussion could have
>>>>>>> been helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me make some try to have a better understanding. Anyway, I didn't
>>>>>>>> see any change on the manual around the "Karaf Custom Distribution"
>>>>>>>> section. It should be introduce and described in the manual.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We surely need some very good documentation on this move, because we
>>>>>>> already have a description for how to build a custom distributions and
>>>>>>> people are already using it to make their own custom distribution. I
>>>>>>> used to do this at my former company
>>>>>>> and I'm sure the guys doing it now will get kind of upset if they have
>>>>>>> to change a lot on how to make a custom distribution.
>>>>>>> Just my 2 cent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will do that regarding my tests on ServiceMix.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> JB
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 04/08/2011 09:15 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to suggest that it would be more appropriate for other
>>>>>>>>> projects such as servicemix to have one or more karaf-assembly
>>>>>>>>> packaging projects similar to the apache-karaf-framework or
>>>>>>>>> apache-karaf-full assemblies but including exactly the content
>>>>>>>>> wanted, rather than starting with a distributed karaf server and
>>>>>>>>> modifying it.  That was more or less the point of introcuding the
>>>>>>>>> karaf-assembly packaging.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a pretty dramatic change in philosophy of what karaf is and
>>>>>>>>> how to use it, but I think it is easier to use and a lot more
>>>>>>>>> flexible.  I think of karaf more as a way to construct servers rather
>>>>>>>>> than as a particular set of content in a server.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Before, I will check the impact on some other projects, especially
>>>>>>>>>> around the groupId/artifactId used.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We made a mistake by changing the groupId/artifactId of features, I
>>>>>>>>>> don't wanna to have the same issue with the distribution assemblies.
>>>>>>>>>> Projects like ServiceMix use the Karaf distribution in their own
>>>>>>>>>> assembly. At least, we need to document the new Mojo, the new
>>>>>>>>>> distro, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm gonna make some tests with ServiceMix and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>> JB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 04/08/2011 07:45 PM, David Jencks wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to suggest that we remove the old assemblies/apache-karaf
>>>>>>>>>>> and use instead the assemblies/apache-karaf-minimal and
>>>>>>>>>>> apache-karaf-full assemblies constructed using the new mojos.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> think we can also remove a lot of mojos from the karaf-maven-plugin.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With the exception of some configuration files, legal files, the
>>>>>>>>>>> demo files, and the inclusion of o.a.k.shell.ssh in the old minimal
>>>>>>>>>>> assembly by error, the contents of the corresponding new and old
>>>>>>>>>>> assemblies are the same.  A few more bundles start in the newer
>>>>>>>>>>> servers but I think these are errors similar to the inclusion of
>>>>>>>>>>> ssh in the minimal assemblies.  It would be great if someone more
>>>>>>>>>>> familiar with karaf history than I would investigate the
>>>>>>>>>>> differences and advise about what to do.  Basically I assume that
>>>>>>>>>>> all the bundles in system should be started, so the choices are to
>>>>>>>>>>> remove the extra bundles from system or to decide that indeed their
>>>>>>>>>>> presence is correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure what to do with the demos.  It's easy enough to write
>>>>>>>>>>> a kar file that will unpack the demo content so it will look just
>>>>>>>>>>> as it does today, but what's there strikes me as sort of horrible.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't really expect a server image to include maven projects that
>>>>>>>>>>> I can build to add functionality.  I think that it would be a lot
>>>>>>>>>>> more appropriate to have a customization maven archetype that will
>>>>>>>>>>> generate a full-featured customization project, and one or two demo
>>>>>>>>>>> features that can install prebuilt demo applications.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm thinking about how best to install legal files into assemblies
>>>>>>>>>>> and hope to have a suggestion in the next few days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The current apache-karaf builds some kind of source distribution.
>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't looked into exactly what it is but suggest that the
>>>>>>>>>>> source distros produced by the apache release profile are 
>>>>>>>>>>> sufficient.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Related to this suggestion I think it would be great if some of the
>>>>>>>>>>> other projects that use karaf such as servicemix, activemq,
>>>>>>>>>>> directory (?) tried out the new packagings to build custom server
>>>>>>>>>>> assemblies.  I will try to write up some documentation and maven
>>>>>>>>>>> archetypes for this in the next few days.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>>>>>>> david jencks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

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