Hey, I like that idea of a nightly build on documentation :-) If we get this easily integrated on our karaf.apache.org with the right hint that it's the last documentation from trunk. Voila done :-)
regards, Achim 2011/6/17 Guillaume Nodet <[email protected]>: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:28, James Strachan <[email protected]> wrote: >> On 17 June 2011 11:16, Christian Schneider <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Hi James, >>> >>> first thanks for your explanations. >>> >>> Am 17.06.2011 11:14, schrieb James Strachan: >>>> >>>> On 17 June 2011 09:19, Christian Schneider<[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I know that I have proposed this before and then got the answer that this >>>>> was discussed already. Still I have the feeling that everybody dislikes >>>>> the >>>>> current way we build our website.... so again a try :-)... >>>> >>>> I'm not sure you realise how much dislike there is for wikis? >>>> >>> I did not realize but I am starting to see :-) I only saw the >>>> >>>> Wikis don't help committers and don't help users (as you end up with >>>> crap everywhere from different versions - or worse documentation for >>>> stuff thats not even released yet); all just in case we hope one day >>>> someone will turn up and dump a load of useful stuff in the wiki (that >>>> never really happens). >>> >>> That is true help from people outside the project is rare. >>>> >>>> Incidentally I'm even finding the argument that a wiki is the easiest >>>> way to get contributions to have less and less value these days since >>>> github. Its actually easier for a total newbie to come along, fork an >>>> apache project's git repo on github.com, edit some text files& do a >>>> pull request than it is to pester folks for write access to the wiki >>>> first before they can even begin to contribute anything. The wiki has >>>> a much larger barrier to entry than github. >>> >>> Github would be a great way to improve the documentation workflow for karaf. >>> You would not >>> need to open a jira issue to make a change and apply patch. Sadly we are >>> stuck with subversion. >> >> Sure - the sooner we can ditch subversion at Apache the better. >> However still the easiest way to get new documentation contributions >> today at Apache is to get folks to fork the apache repos at github. >> Then asynchronously do the ICLA stuff; not block on the ICLA first. >> >> >> >>>> Imagine for a second, you are a newbie - you've seen some issue or >>>> have an idea for a little page; with github 2 clicks, 20 seconds later >>>> you're editing the file in question or writing the new file then >>>> firing off the pull request and getting on with your life doing >>>> something else. With a wiki you try editing; doesn't work, so you >>>> shoot off an email for access then wait. Then after a random time >>>> period of hours to days you get more mails then at some point later, >>>> you get the ability to login again to the wiki and hopefully you can >>>> now edit the page. By the time you get access you've probably >>>> forgotten what you were gonna do in the first place :) >>> >>> The process of getting rights for the wiki is a problem of course. But it is >>> necesary as we need the icla to accept contributions. >>> That may also be a big problem with github. You send a pull request but that >>> opens a big problem with IP issues. I think a pull request >>> does not include that the user declares that he has the rights on the code >>> he submits and may donate them to apache. In fact it does not even say he >>> donates the code at all. >>> So for example offering dual licenses later is a problem. I think this is a >>> big issue with github. I am not sure how important this is for documentation >>> though. >> >> We need the ICLA before we can merge into our repo. However thats a >> completely separate issue to the potential new contributor being able >> to actually create their contribution in the first place. The ICLA >> stuff can be done in parallel after their initial contribution and it >> really doesn't matter if it takes weeks to do (which it usually does >> anyway). Apache committers are the only ones who merge the github >> changes to the Apache repos - so there is zero issue of IP here. >> >> Whats important is folks can contribute quickly and easily with >> minimum delay or red tape. We're all busy; if you have to wait 2-3 >> weeks before you can add a line of text to a document; you're gonna >> find something else to do quite frankly. Waiting weeks for an ICLA >> does not make it easy for newbies to contribute. With github they can >> make their contributions immediately; folks can immediately see it and >> comment on it. Then in parallel work can commence on getting the ICLA >> in place so the changes can be merged to Apache. Indeed while the ICLA >> is being processed the user can make more contributions. When the ICLA >> is done then a committer can merge in whatever documentation changes >> they've made. > > Over the last 5 years, I've rarely seen people contributing a lot to > the doc without being or becoming committers. > I don't want to change a technical decision based on the fact that > people *might* need something, but rather what people actually need. > You are a committer, so you can access / modify the documentation > without any problems. So what are your real problems with the current > solution ? We can easily set up nightly uploads or even an hourly > cron job (though given the change rate, i think a nightly one should > be sufficient). If you need an editor, you always find some software > I think such as > http://www.labnol.org/software/wysiwyg-wiki-editor/18062/ though I > tend to use the "mvn jetty:run" which works quite well as you can see > your changes immediately. > > The main problem is that we've been asked by infra to get rid of > confluence, so I certainly don't want to think about getting back to > confluence unless infra retracts. > >> >> -- >> James >> ------- >> FuseSource >> Email: [email protected] >> Web: http://fusesource.com >> Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews >> Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/ >> >> Open Source Integration and Messaging >> > > > > -- > ------------------------ > Guillaume Nodet > ------------------------ > Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/ > ------------------------ > Open Source SOA > http://fusesource.com > -- -- *Achim Nierbeck* Apache Karaf <http://karaf.apache.org/> Committer & PMC OPS4J Pax Web <http://wiki.ops4j.org/display/paxweb/Pax+Web/> Committer & Project Lead
