Hey Chris, Maybe something's wrong with your email? There were several replies from JD Cryans, Mike Percy, Adar Dembo, and David Alves in this thread.
-Todd On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < [email protected]> wrote: > I’m a bit worried that it’s been almost a week and not one person > has discussed this here besides Todd and/or I. There are 9 committers > and 7 mentors per [1]. Where is everybody? > > Cheers, > Chris > > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/kudu.html > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > Chief Architect > Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527 > Email: [email protected] > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Director, Information Retrieval and Data Science Group (IRDS) > Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > WWW: http://irds.usc.edu/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jpluser <[email protected]> > Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 8:00 PM > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Creating more actual (non-code-auto-emails) discussion on the > M/L > > >Thanks for the reply Todd. Unfortunately it's more systematic than that. > >Apologies for top post but am on my phone. Couple points: > > > >- interested to hear from others besides you on this. No offense but I > >think it's important that project members send email here to reply. > > > >- I hand counted the 4 threads of interest. Didn't run a fancy command > >but to be honest it's more indicative of the broader issue. Things aren't > >always solved through fancy greps and tools like gerrit. This is going to > >be a core issue with Kudu's incubation - how is someone not sitting in a > >cube working on the project who isn't on those tools like gerrit and > >slack which don't exist at the ASF going to join on the project? > > > >- Even considering 40 threads I doubt there have only be <= 40 > >*decisions* on the project to date. IOW they are being made somewhere but > >it's unclear where. Email is easy to follow on a phone on the go > >whatever. > > > >As a mentor I would not be comfortable with Kudu being a TLP at this > >point bc frankly projects need to use their dev list for more than > >automated discussion and big reports. Simple as that and sending a > >transcript of where convo is happening elsewhere is not going to cut it > >unfortunately. > > > >Email is slow and deliberate and not as fast or slick as gerrit etc, but > >that's a good thing. It allows people the time needed to read and join an > >OSS community. It's too hard to do that with Kudu right now. > > > >Cheers, > >Chris > > > >Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Mar 9, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Todd Lipcon <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Hey Chris, > >> > >> Responses inline: > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Team, > >>> > >>> I looked at: > >>> > >>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-kudu-dev > >>> > >>> And over the last 4 months and Kudu’s inception, we have had > >>> well over 2k+ emails, and looking back I found 4 actual threads > >>> during that time (and one of which was a release VOTE thread) > >>> that wasn’t automatically generated by Gerrit. > >>> > >>> Mar 2016 438 > >>> Feb 2016 1003 > >>> Jan 2016 1143 > >>> Dec 2015 12 > >> > >> Hmm, I did a search in my inbox for: [email protected] > >>-gerrit > >> -jira -"git commit" -dev-help -"svn commit" -moderate -"git push > >>summary" > >> and counted 30-35 threads. You're right, of course, that JIRA and gerrit > >> eclipse the amount of email discussion, though. > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> If we are going to become an ASF top level project, the project > >>> discussion has to happen on the mailing list. We had similar > >>> issues in Spark and I realize that lots of project work is assisted > >>> by tools and other technologies, but at the ASF, “if it didn’t > >>> happen on the mailing list, it didn’t happen.” More-over it’s hard > >>> to parse signal from noise in all these automated messages. Frankly > >>> I don’t really know if anything good is going on - I know things > >>> are going on, and I assume they are good, but it’s extremely hard > >>> to verify that. > >> > >> I think it's worth noting that the "automated' messages are typically > >>code > >> review requests and responses, which are developer discussion. Our > >> project's culture is usually to use JIRAs and/or 'work-in-progress' > >>patches > >> in gerrit to communicate when we find a bug or want an opinion on > >> something. For example, today I found a new bug > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KUDU-1369 and wrote up a quick > >> work-in-progress for a a proposed solution and put it up at > >> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2514/ . I think it would be > >>redundant > >> to also send an email to the list saying "Hey guys, I found a bug, > >>here's a > >> description". > >> > >> The same goes for design discussion -- eg > >> http://gerrit.cloudera.org:8080/#/c/2443/ is a recent gerrit post that > >>Dan > >> made for a new feature he's working on. In this case he also sent an > >>email > >> to the dev list to point out the gerrit in case anyone missed it. I > >>imagine > >> a lot of people would filter the gerrit emails out of their inbox but > >>not > >> direct emails to the list (gerrit provides both headers and a subject > >>line > >> tag to make it easy to do) > >> > >> In terms of daily dev discussion, most of it has been happening on our > >> Slack -- eg earlier today three contributors were discussing in-progress > >> efforts on Spark RDD integration and sharing code via that channel. > >>Most of > >> the community members we've seen so far have tended to prefer this quick > >> back-and-forth for discussion. > >> > >> Of course any _decisions_ will be made on the mailing list. If you > >>think it > >> would be useful to send a daily slack log to the mailing list, we can do > >> that as well. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> I have a possible suggestions: > >>> > >>> * Create a [email protected] and send all automated > >>> traffic there. *-issues is one option; we could make another name for > >>> it. > >> > >> Sure, we could do that. But, isn't it just as easy for people to set up > >>a > >> filter for 'kudu-CR' if they want to move those messages elsewhere? Our > >> initial motivation when setting up mailing lists was to avoid having too > >> many (makes it a pain for people to subscribe to them all). > >> > >> > >>> > >>> That will help to separate the signal from the noise in terms of > >>> dev/architectural/etc. discussions from code reviews and automated > >>> commit messages. > >>> > >>> One thing you may say is that dev/architectural discussions are > >>>happening > >>> but they are in Gerrit. I would then say it’s extremely difficult to > >>> separate the signal from the noise here, and as such, could be > >>>contributing > >>> towards making it difficult for others to join the project, something > >>> that we identified as an issue in our Incubator report. > >> > >> Right. One option is that, for patches with bigger discussion, we can > >>add a > >> gerrit "reviewer" which is actually the dev mailing list. This would > >>cause > >> the discussion to be CCed there, and bring it to the attention of more > >> people. Another thought is to do as you suggest above and move gerrit > >> elsewhere, and just have a policy that whenever any gerrit starts > >>getting > >> architectural, that we send a ping to the dev mailing list to point it > >>out > >> (as Dan did with his recent design doc). > >> > >> -Todd > > -- Todd Lipcon Software Engineer, Cloudera
