On 16.08.2016 11:43, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: > Le mardi 16 août 2016 à 10:31 +0300, Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic a écrit : >> On 15.08.2016 22:23, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: >>> >>> Le lundi 15 août 2016 à 21:45 +0300, Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic a écrit : >>>> >>>> On 15.08.2016 21:23, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le lundi 15 août 2016 à 21:04 +0300, Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic a écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15.08.2016 20:09, Paul Kocialkowski wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thus, it would be more accurate to say that the device is free- >>>>>>> software- >>>>>>> friendly, which is vague enough to not be contradictory with the >>>>>>> facts. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not really a big fan of the "free-software-friendly" term, exactly >>>>>> because it's vague (laking a definition/criteria) and it doesn't >>>>>> really >>>>>> tell users much regarding how respecting of software freedom that >>>>>> piece >>>>>> of hardware is. That's why a wide range of hardware projects feel at >>>>>> liberty to promote themselves as "free-software-friendly". >>>>> >>>>> Indeed, it's not very precise, but I don't think that's the goal here. I >>>>> think >>>>> vague statements are fine as long as they are clearly recognized as >>>>> such. >>>> >>>> It depends on the targeted audience. If that is the general public, I'm >>>> sure that the average user doesn't clearly recognize this term as vague. >>>> >>>> I believe the targeted audience of the Parabola blog is not only >>>> educated users/free software activists/developers, but the general >>>> public/average computer user. >>> >>> I mean that the precise wording "free-software-friendly" is intrinsically >>> vague, >>> so I doubt that anyone will understand it as an equivalent of "fully free >>> software" or "freedom-respecting". >> >> However, both average users and high-profile organizations in the free >> software world are using "free software friendly" to also mean "fully >> free software" or "freedom-respecting". > > I don't see the problem or contradiction here. It is vague so it can > rightfully > cover both terms. The point is that it is not intrinsically equivalent to one > of > those. > >>> So the question is whether it's good to use vague wording. I think that e.g. >>> for >>> the news title, it would be fine. Of course, a link to RYF and the single- >>> board- >>> computers page could shed some more lights for anyone interested. >> >> Given the examples above where "free software friendly" is used by a >> wide range of users, companies and nonprofits for both hardware fully >> compatible with free software and hardware not fully compatible with >> free software, I hope we can reach the same conclusion that we have to >> avoid this ambiguous term which spreads confusion among what is and what >> is not software freedom respecting, thus working against our efforts to >> educate users as part of the free software movement. > > I disagree with that conclusion. Using a vague word implies that it doesn't > refer to something more precise -- but it can cover such terms. I don't think > that using a vague/broad expression, that lacks details, is confusing and > misleading. It's just imprecise, which is different. > > People who'll understand free software-friendly as fully free are jumping to > conclusion without any basis. The words don't hold that meaning, they are > adding > more sense to it than what the words hold.
Well, based on my experience, the masses do understand free software friendly as fully compatible with free software. Especially since a company with FSF-endorsed hardware states: "For more information on free software friendly hardware check out the Free Software Foundation's Respect Your Freedom web site at: fsf.org/ryf." https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/short-interview-christopher-waid-about-thinkpenguin-linux-action-show Which IMO sends the message "free software friendly" is equivalent to "respects your freedom". So this user understandably recommends other users: "ThinkPenguin.com has some great free software-friendly computers (FSF endorses ThinkPenguin, anyway) and can come installed with Trisquel, so next time you get a PC, make it a penguin and escape proprietary software." https://trisquel.info/en/forum/what-trisquel-without-libreboot#comment-56529 For him, "free software friendly" means "no proprietary software" = "fully free software compatible". And he teaches other users that. Another example: "My freedom is ready" - https://trisquel.info/en/forum/new-thinkpenguin-laptop What do other people on this list think? Should we avoid using the term "free software friendly" or there is no reason not to use it? Thanks, Tiberiu -- https://ceata.org https://tehnoetic.com _______________________________________________ Dev mailing list Dev@lists.parabola.nu https://lists.parabola.nu/mailman/listinfo/dev