Another Overseer :) I don't mean to contradict your curator statement either - I talk with the authority of god but with the confidence of no one ;)
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 7:44 PM Scott Blum <dragonsi...@gmail.com> wrote: > WHO OVERSEES THE OVERSEER???? > > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:16 PM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> bq. SolrCloud is a ballerina. Doesn't look it, cause we dont take care >> of it. >> >> And this is why I'm so devastated by the Overseer. I don't blame anyone >> person. Where was the manual, where was my intervention. I whispered >> Overseer and cut one more thing off my list of responsibilities. >> >> But the overseer is supposed to be so light weight and easy breezy. >> Giving up leader shop at the most signs of trouble, keeping >> communication small and tight with tiny json distrib queue pub/sub updates. >> Little about stat change, hardly needed. Hardly ever talking to Zookeeper. >> >> Our whole system is not moved hard against this, but nothing so much as >> the Overseer. It has very scary, very tricky, custom ZK code. It has major >> communication with ZK. It has little to weak ability to properly throttle >> itself or deal with things intelligently. It's almost a brute force tactic. >> And it clings to being Overseer like a moth to flame. It's designed to be >> on a dedicated hardwar and then mostly to not make any reasonable use of >> that hardware. >> >> I blame me more than anyone for that. I am mad at me. It's just an >> absolute brain bash with a sledge hammer to the system. And i never >> communicated the system very well. I was overloaded. >> >> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 11:01 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> And now we are to meat of it. Fill in here: >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-13888 >>> >>> We can play in a better world, we can have fun, but some of you are >>> going to have to adjust your ways. In the most convenient way possible. You >>> are all great people, I don't want to cause you annoyance, but there are >>> certain requirements to building an aircraft, and there certain >>> requirements to building this. >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:44 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> If you had any idea how much suffering just that has caused. Not just >>>> users, but us. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:38 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It’s like 6-7 years since I quickly added a shitty collections API in >>>>> my free time because we desperately needed SOMETHING. I don’t know if I >>>>> tried to make it wait for proper state or what , it was a stub to try get >>>>> things moving. That call, to this day, along with all our other checks, >>>>> until some tests ones recently, is garbage. >>>>> >>>>> If I downloaded a database, and a lot the time, after the create a >>>>> database call returned, my database was not ready, I’d saw wow. Terrible >>>>> bug got through. If it was a persistent issue for over half a decade? My >>>>> god. >>>>> >>>>> Look I just spent that half decade upgrading from Solr 4 to whatever. >>>>> I was mostly out of the loop. But this is crazy, me in there too. >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:05 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'll tell you what guys, development right now sucks. I don't enjoy. >>>>>> >>>>>> But when I start to put things in shape? I get this smile, and I >>>>>> start going with the feeling of I don't need you guys, I don't users, I >>>>>> don't need a job, cause just this is figgen nice. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:59 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I suppose I should toss one more out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hell yes, we will be using curator. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's insane for any group larger than 2-3 to directly use ZooKeeper. >>>>>>> Even for that group, you want some damn good reasons to not use >>>>>>> curator. We >>>>>>> can start using more assembly too (joke Yonik). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Curator was an option initially. Then it was yet another project >>>>>>> hosted by Netflix. Now it is essential. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:41 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And look, we started pretty deep in the hole. Solr started with >>>>>>>> tons of bug or limitations that hardly mattered to it and hit >>>>>>>> SolrCloud in >>>>>>>> the eye like a train. And we were not setup to deal with that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We never had a nice garden for SolrCloud. We started in a mess, >>>>>>>> thinking, eventually we clear the overgrowth, and we are all good. And >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> we started building our house and that garden went wild with a life of >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> own. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And our development practices, amazingly above many many many >>>>>>>> groups and standards out there, is woefully inaccurate for what we are >>>>>>>> doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Test pass, I'm not sure about all this but I'm going to commit" >>>>>>>> (Tests never pass, must be a lie anyway) >>>>>>>> "Leaving on vacation, going to fire this in" >>>>>>>> "No one has looked at this huge thing, it's been a while, going to >>>>>>>> commit" >>>>>>>> *commit* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And comments to that affect pretty much wrap up our careful and >>>>>>>> thoughtful attitude. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And then of course we come and clean up after, careful gardeners >>>>>>>> that we are ... no, we don't. We are not setup to be gardeners, we are >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> trying, even if we do, I only like grass and screw the other plants. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Without SolrCloud, Solr wold be in trouble as well. Brute that it >>>>>>>> is, it could go a few more rounds. SolrCloud is a ballerina. Doesn't >>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>> it, cause we dont take care of it. But it is, and it cannot take the >>>>>>>> beating that the brute does. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Mark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:19 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Basically I can fix 99% of this without you guys - with simple >>>>>>>>> care and effort and time that non of you are likely in the >>>>>>>>> circumstances of >>>>>>>>> being able to duplicate.. Been there done that, made it 100x-1000x >>>>>>>>> faster >>>>>>>>> to boot and added all kinds of fun. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But I can't build the rest of Solr. I don't care about facets. So >>>>>>>>> let's meet half way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 5:14 AM Mark Miller <markrmil...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There are 10,000 problems here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So if you eventually land on one possible solution you agree on, >>>>>>>>>> we a little closer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is no problem with the current design. Design's can always >>>>>>>>>> be improved, sure. I've made this one fast. You won't believe me >>>>>>>>>> fast. The >>>>>>>>>> low hanging fruit is astronomical, there is more fruit above that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We never focused on performance. Or at least didn't. That's after >>>>>>>>>> we harden. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Except performance is the key to everything. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> SolrCloud is not the only problem. The design of Solr, of >>>>>>>>>> SolrCloud, they are fine. Change them, I don't care. Later. They are >>>>>>>>>> not a >>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But Solr has as many problems as SolrCloud at this point. This >>>>>>>>>> just mater a whole hell of lot less unless they are messing with >>>>>>>>>> SolrCloud. Standalone is more of a brute. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We have 60 modules that are interconnected. We have a huge code >>>>>>>>>> base. That is also fine. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We don't tend our garden. That's not fine. I've tended the garden >>>>>>>>>> before without one - more than once before. It's a great damn >>>>>>>>>> garden. You >>>>>>>>>> guys only get to see it grown over and full of weeds. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, no redesign, no library, no nothing like that gonna save >>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is hardly concrete awareness of a problem here. The >>>>>>>>>> awareness to figure out what actually are the problems and what must >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> done - that's expensive shit these days if you ask me. I've been >>>>>>>>>> wrong lots >>>>>>>>>> tough. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 2:26 PM Jörn Franke <jornfra...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I guess this is also a bit normal with software that grows over >>>>>>>>>>> the years. >>>>>>>>>>> One could also say that one writes the current use cases and >>>>>>>>>>> interesting future use cases for Solr in a document and designs from >>>>>>>>>>> scratch new - taking only the good pieces out of the existing >>>>>>>>>>> software. >>>>>>>>>>> Of course there is a certain amount of time where you need to >>>>>>>>>>> maintain both - but this will be also the case for a major rewrite. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> > Am 04.11.2019 um 20:58 schrieb Erick Erickson < >>>>>>>>>>> erickerick...@gmail.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > If Curator would make that easier and we’re doing major >>>>>>>>>>> surgery anyway…. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > But yeah, a nifty, new, more modern tool isn’t going to >>>>>>>>>>> magically help if the design is flawed. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Or, if I’m putting my philosophical hat on, code doesn’t get >>>>>>>>>>> gnarly intentionally. It gets gnarly because there are a bunch of >>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>> to be solved and you don’t know what they are until you run into >>>>>>>>>>> them. And >>>>>>>>>>> it’s always a tension between fixing it enough to get by and fixing >>>>>>>>>>> it by >>>>>>>>>>> refactoring/redesign. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > But eventually “fixing it enough to get by” totters under it’s >>>>>>>>>>> own weight and becomes increasingly fragile and you must take the >>>>>>>>>>> hit and >>>>>>>>>>> redo major portions of it. The questions now are: >>>>>>>>>>> > 1> are we at that point? >>>>>>>>>>> > 2> are we going to put the effort into rewriting some of the >>>>>>>>>>> worst offenders? >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> >> On Nov 4, 2019, at 1:28 PM, Scott Blum <dragonsi...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Figuring out a better overall algorithmic & data structure >>>>>>>>>>> design that's an order of magnitude improvement seems far more >>>>>>>>>>> important >>>>>>>>>>> than swapping out libraries. And I say this as a Curator fan and >>>>>>>>>>> committer. ;) >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 11:44 AM Erick Erickson < >>>>>>>>>>> erickerick...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >> Bram: >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Using Curator has been proposed before. It would require >>>>>>>>>>> significant refactoring b/c of how deeply entwined raw ZK is in the >>>>>>>>>>> code. >>>>>>>>>>> That said, if we’re going to do major surgery it may be the right >>>>>>>>>>> time to >>>>>>>>>>> consider it. >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> Erick >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> On Nov 4, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Bram Van Dam < >>>>>>>>>>> bram.van...@intix.eu> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> SolrCloud is sick right now. The way low level Zookeeper is >>>>>>>>>>> handeled >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> On an unrelated project, I've stopped using "raw" ZK client >>>>>>>>>>> access and >>>>>>>>>>> >>> have switched to Curator. The API is a fair bit easier to >>>>>>>>>>> work with, and >>>>>>>>>>> >>> it results in less ugly code. I realize that this won't go >>>>>>>>>>> very far in >>>>>>>>>>> >>> resolving more fundamental issues, but it might be something >>>>>>>>>>> that can >>>>>>>>>>> >>> help improve the shape of the code. >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> - Bram >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> - Mark >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> - Mark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> - Mark >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> - Mark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> - Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> - Mark >>>>> >>>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> - Mark >>>> >>>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> - Mark >>> >>> http://about.me/markrmiller >>> >> >> >> -- >> - Mark >> >> http://about.me/markrmiller >> > -- - Mark http://about.me/markrmiller
