Marcus, A couple thoughts…
First, sorry you’re having problems with Confluence. I suspect the issue is permissions. There are only two groups allowed to add pages to the SOLR space, “lucene” and “lucene-pmc”. I believe these correspond to ASF LDAP groups, which would mean they include committers and PMC members only. We can grant you individual permission to add/edit pages, however; we’ve done this for a handful of others. I could do this for you, just ping me off-thread so I can confirm your username. I don’t know what happened to the pages you tried to create. You can try to see if they are hidden somehow, maybe in your profile’s “Recently worked on” section (https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/dashboard.action#recently-worked). When you’re on that page, the menu on the left also shows a “Saved for later” page that maybe has them. At any rate, I wouldn’t suggest putting all the design decisions/discussion into a PR. That’s what we traditionally used Jira for. We decided to use SIPs to make navigating design discussions in Jira easier - decisions would get lost in comments - and to forestall someone doing possibly wasted work until they have some degree of community agreement for what they hope to do. If you put it in a PR, by its very nature those decisions would already be made and that could lead to significant amounts of rework. The SIP process is to write up the SIP and then file a Jira issue, and you can’t file a PR without a Jira, so you’ll need a Jira issue for this work anyway. If you really can’t write a SIP, then the fallback is Jira, not a PR. Re: the API issues - those should also go into Jira. I can’t see your list so far since it requires permission, but I’ll just say I would not recommend dropping your whole doc into a single Jira. They’ll need to be broken out into separate ones (and it’s pretty likely issues already exist for at least some of the things). I know that sounds like a PITA, but we don’t track issues in personal Google docs, we use Jira. And if some of the items are possibly controversial, then individual items for each one will allow us to work through the controversies and not stall progress on things that are not problematic (if anyone is so inclined to work on those). Hopefully you don’t mind the unsolicited advice on this, just trying to help you understand some of our ways of doing things. Cassandra On Apr 14, 2020, 3:18 AM -0500, Marcus Eagan <marcusea...@gmail.com>, wrote: > Mike and Gus, > > I tried to share my SIP after writing it, and then it disappeared. I also > tried to write some and save it, but then it disappeared. I also tried to > write it outside the wiki and paste it again. > > I'm not sure what's going on, but I will try again tomorrow I suppose. If I > fail again, my SIP will probably come in the form of a Pull Request, with > videos, screenshots, a lit of todos, and helpful documentation so that people > can get started easily. > > From this project, I have also uncovered what I would consider some serious > issues with the Solr API and some other issues that I dig through Jira for > before I bother the community. I will do my best to document them all and > open tickets. Some times I rage quit, walk away, come back and forget. I will > try to fix some of them, but some of them that I have looked into look like > worm cans. It might be good if a few people here are prepared to explore > fixing the API in a few areas, but I'm not sure about the best way to go > about doing that with angering lots of people. Seeking advice on how to > approach the API challenges. I don't just want to start complaining about > things, nor do I want to take on everything. A small group from a variety of > different organizations to discuss some of these challenges might be most > helpful. On the flip side, I suspect things will improve in other areas as a > result. > > You can view progress here: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NgO34DRp1llMp3EwJQcKBn2LM4r5PD39/view?usp=sharing > > I've mostly managed to get all the requests sorted, and rendering of the data > (mostly). i didn't get much time today as I was very busy at work. And > tomorrow I get my quarantine checkup and will probably be sleepy early. But > by the end of next weekend, I should have finished everything but the query > editor and all the other associated collections screens which I will bucket > under collections. That current dropdown menu is less intuitive than optimal > but I understand. > > Soliciting feedback now because once I open the PR I am hoping we have agreed > on as many things as possible. If no one suggest query view designs, I will > mock some up and share them. Again, I repeat, not a designer. But I did take > couple classes, and have built products from start to finish mostly on an > island so I will be able to manage. Looking for feedback that the community > might be getting from its clients. Obviously, I cannot accommodate all the > requests, but if something is recurring, I want to support the users to > support the adoption of this new UI. > > As if I needed to say it, and many of you probably suspected this was coming: > Erick this is a lot of work. Holy shit. And not just because I'm a product > manager. It would be challenging for anyone. This project, like all project, > has some skeletons. From my perspective, that's gfreat because there are lots > of things to improve. Also, the project is still pretty amazing. > > Thanks again for your help everyone, > > Marcus > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 9:55 AM Marcus Eagan <marcusea...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Gus, > > > > > > SIP sounds good. I will share. > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 09:13 Gus Heck <gus.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Maybe start collecting Design and Design choices in a SIP? This > > > > > discussion has been good and there seems to be consensus that we want > > > > > a new UI, we want it to be a package and we want the package to be > > > > > available by default and well tested. "Package" seems to imply that > > > > > it can be added or removed or replaced or an alternative UI installed > > > > > along side of it. If we got all of those things done this would be > > > > > amazingly awesome :) > > > > > > > > > > Another thing that would be valuable is a good doc that explains > > > > > "how to edit and maintain the UI", written for an audience that is > > > > > experienced in SW dev but not UI development (probably including some > > > > > basics around framework chosen). This could be in a README or in the > > > > > "dev docs" that has been mentioned elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > The SIP would be a great place to elaborate on technology choices & > > > > > supply a link to things like the video :) > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:35 AM Mike Drob <md...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Marcus, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mailing list strips attachments for some folks, can you > > > > > > > upload the video somewhere else and link to it for us poor > > > > > > > unfortunate souls? Thanks for your work! Excited to see the > > > > > > > progress as it happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:30 AM Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > <marcusea...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > In general, I asked for some degree of trouble when I > > > > > > > > > volunteered for this work. Don't beat me too hard. My primary > > > > > > > > > goal is to achieve three things: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Improve security when using Solr Admin UI by removing EOL, > > > > > > > > > unsupported code. > > > > > > > > > 2) Make it easier or more welcoming for new developers to try > > > > > > > > > the project and even become contributors in all areas of the > > > > > > > > > project because the UI looks and functions as slightly more > > > > > > > > > contemporary. > > > > > > > > > 3) Give back more substantially to a community from which I > > > > > > > > > have received so much with a testable and perrty UI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've added another (4) which is contribute to help make the > > > > > > > > > package manager a first-class citizen in the minds of many > > > > > > > > > Solr users around the world via the UI package. I will need > > > > > > > > > some help from someone in this list on deploying this UI with > > > > > > > > > a jar in Gradle if we want to offer an alternative option to > > > > > > > > > install the UI in Solr 9. I've attached where I'm at. It's a > > > > > > > > > nights and weekends project, but I will always be available > > > > > > > > > for bug fixes or discussions, unless i'm in a meeting or > > > > > > > > > reading a book 😇 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't solicit a ton of feedback prior to the the first PR, > > > > > > > > > which I will leave open for a few weeks or even a couple > > > > > > > > > months while I put some lipstick on it and improve > > > > > > > > > performance of the application > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<< Over the weekend read lots of documentation, wrote a > > > > > > > > > bunch of code when it wasn't holidays, built the services, > > > > > > > > > and stumbled through the logic of rendering all these data > > > > > > > > > points so you can watch the attached video if you want to > > > > > > > > > check it out. >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . There's definitely some areas where I didn't do the > > > > > > > > > TypeScript thing because I'm still trying to grok it a > > > > > > > > > bit.The two areas of the that I am looking to somewhat > > > > > > > > > overhaul in potentially controversial ways are the queries > > > > > > > > > page and actual flow of the collections experience, which at > > > > > > > > > the moment are sort of linked, yet disconnected at the same > > > > > > > > > time. The Collections page tab today is really an Alias page. > > > > > > > > > It won't have its own tab in the new application is the plan, > > > > > > > > > unless someone can give me a good reason. Almost everything > > > > > > > > > else will stay the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For that reason, I'd like to solicit feedback if anyone has > > > > > > > > > any examples or ideas they'd like to share, I would greatly > > > > > > > > > appreciate it. I'm somewhat far along with the Admin UI as of > > > > > > > > > now. Short weekend because of holiday activities and general > > > > > > > > > quarantine craziness, but I'm maybe 25-35% of the way to > > > > > > > > > completion, depending on how much care I devote to the query > > > > > > > > > screen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even though there are some big problems with Angular — some > > > > > > > > > major ones — I think this was the right way to go for many > > > > > > > > > reasons. I'm about a quarter as fast in Angular as I am in > > > > > > > > > React, but this is the right decision for the long haul. I > > > > > > > > > can elaborate if anyone really cares. Most importantly, this > > > > > > > > > app will be a lot easier to maintain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But now I have a handle on TypeScript. Many optimizations and > > > > > > > > > improvements coming to Solr as a result. TypeScript can be > > > > > > > > > pretty opinionated about APIs for someone thinking that they > > > > > > > > > are back in the wild wild west. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sending big air hugs, > > > > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 16:20 Noble Paul > > > > > > > > > > <noble.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > +1 to David Smiley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020, 8:12 AM Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > <marcusea...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see admin UI as non-core. I think that an > > > > > > > > > > > > > application UI for end-users of an application > > > > > > > > > > > > > consumes Solr non-core. I have to resign from > > > > > > > > > > > > > arguing, though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't consider myself a UI expert. I can do the > > > > > > > > > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 11:42 AM Ishan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chattopadhyaya <ichattopadhy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David, you capture my thoughts well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a UI as a package gives users more choice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and gives our users more flexibility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Users would be able to use a latter version of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the UI with an older version of Solr, or vice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > versa. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Users should be able to install multiple types > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of UI, from different publishers, at once. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Contributors should be able to contribute to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the UI more easily, since collaboration can be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > less bureaucratic. Experts like Marcus won't need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to depend on preoccupied committers like us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. A UI (not the default one) can use libraries > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that aren't even Apache 2.0 compatible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. We can setup and use UI test frameworks for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > test automation (selenium etc), that would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > challenging to setup and maintain with ASF > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jenkins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List goes on.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whether the package is a first party or third > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > party can be a separate discussion. There should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be an extremely easy and well defined way > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (support in the script itself) to start Solr with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the packaged UI enabled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any case, I don't think it is conducive to let > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UI code be part of the Solr's core codebase, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > where it currently is. The reason is, we can't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fix bugs if we break something. We don't have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > automated testing either to know whether or not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we broke anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every healthy project has a rich plugin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ecosystem, and such non core improvements should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be delivered via packages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 10 Apr, 2020, 8:33 pm Marcus Eagan, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <marcusea...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you. 😃 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 06:22 David Smiley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <david.w.smi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree that "package management > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > frameworks are for loading non-essential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features or features not enabled by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think the proposal of the UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being a "package" (in the new package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > system) implies that the UI (or _any_ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > package) is not a highly valuable package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is so highly valuable that we want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it installed by default. Noble and I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > were brainstorming on some ideas where > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even much of Solr's internal instances of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > plugin interfaces (e.g. query parsers, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc.) might even be a new "core" package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or some-such. The value in putting much > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of Solr in a package, 1st party, is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > separation of concerns. and better > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > classpath management. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it's "essential" that a UI ship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with Solr by default -- meaning, without > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the user having to take any additional > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > steps whatsoever. As Jan said it's been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this way a long time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~ David Smiley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache Lucene/Solr Search Developer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwsmiley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 1:35 AM Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eagan <marcusea...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think package management frameworks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are for loading non-essential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features or features not enabled by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default. On essentialness, experts > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should not decide what is essential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > based on how they use a system. They > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should consider the community of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > users. Regarding UI, it is and should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be enabled by default. Only a few use > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cases prefer it to be disabled and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some of those are because of its > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > current state. They would like to use > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it in an updated form. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the technical rationale that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > outweighs the needs and behaviors of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our users to strip the user interface > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out of Solr? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Noble and everyone else, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 19:06 Noble > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul <noble.p...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My 2 cents (again) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if packages are disabled by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default , how will UI work? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can make an exception for this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one and enable only this by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do we test the UI and certify it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The UI package can be shipped > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > along with Solr distro ,like the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > million > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > other jars that we ship with Solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > today and every version of Solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be certified for a certain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > version of the UI package. We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sanity tests to ensure that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > given version of UI works well > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solr. "My commit has broken the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UI and it's not my problem" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be a valid excuse. The UI sanity > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tests should pass as a part of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the UI important? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the admin UI is the face of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solr for may users. People always > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > assumed it existed & they depend > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current admin UI has fallen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > behind. If the new UI effort > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > delivers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on the promise, this is a great > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opportunity to get rid of that old > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > baggage & make Solr codebase even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > slimmer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 6:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jan Høydahl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <jan....@cominvent.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solr has always had an admin UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and if anyone wants to propose > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it should not, please start > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another thread or vote about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that, and do not divert this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thread which is about how to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > improve and future proof the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Admin UI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe the Admin UI should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be strengthened and enhanced, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not removed. It can perfectly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well be an official and even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default on part of every > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > release, perfectly in sync. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whether it is in core as today > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a package or a stand-alone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > process or a new webapp, are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then really what we discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps after people have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > voiced their opinions in this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thread, a SIP can be crafted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with a concrete plan. We can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then have a vote on the SIP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jan Høydahl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. apr. 2020 kl. 20:06 skrev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cassandra Targett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <casstarg...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your message, Gus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You touched on things I was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thinking this morning as I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > caught up to the thread, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > had started to draft a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > message about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel like there is an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > assumption underlying some of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our discussion about packages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that says a feature or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever has to either part > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of our core codebase or 100% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintained by someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > “outside” the community (by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which I mean someone who is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not a committer and/or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > operates completely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > independently from the rest > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the project activities). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it’s important to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember there’s nothing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inherent in the package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > concept that says a package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can't be wholly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintained/distributed/supported > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by the Lucene PMC and our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > community of committers and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contributors. It’s not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > uncommon for software to have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a base package of the core > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > software and also plugins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that most users would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consider “essential”, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintained by the same people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > making the core, but which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are added after the base > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > install. There would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > details to work out in terms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of how we manage that, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > none of those are technically > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > impossible. I don’t think we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > only have a binary choice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (3rd party package or part of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Solr core). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, I’d go so far as to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > say I suspect the only way > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > packages are going to see any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > real traction is if we take > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the lead in creating and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintaining a few to show the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > way forward for everyone else > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who may be interested in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doing the same. The package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > concept introduces an idea of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a Solr ecosystem that has not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > really existed to date and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like all new ecosystems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (communities), it needs some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > degree of nurturing to grow > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or it will not take off. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To bring it back around to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the UI, though, I agree we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > need to decide: is a UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > important? I would argue that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is. I regularly talk to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > users whose Solr knowledge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and experience are quite > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > advanced yet who still rely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > entirely on the UI to carry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > out basic tasks. It’s just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easier - less to remember, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don’t need to look up a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > command, etc. Persistent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > problems with performance of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the UI in large clusters and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gaping holes in functionality > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are deeply frustrating to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because it is important to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > our users, even if any new UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ends up living outside our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > community, it will need our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > explicit approval in some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > form or we’re going to hear > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > complaints until the end of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time that Solr doesn’t have a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > UI (or worse, we “took away” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the UI). Without our ongoing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > endorsement and blessing it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will just be another toy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintained by “somebody” (no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > offense, Marcus) until he is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > forced to abandon it due to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lack of user interest and/or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lack of personal time to do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all the heavy lifting by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > himself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cassandra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 9, 2020, 11:32 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -0500, Erick Erickson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> <erickerick...@gmail.com>, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Gus: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Very thoughtful post. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> think you raise an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> _extremely_ important point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> about “how critical is the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> UI?” And by extension other > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> packages. If they’re > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> critical to Solr, the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> question of how to keep them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> in sync becomes paramount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I agree that the admin UI is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> important, if we have a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> mechanism to insure it’s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> kept in sync with the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> release that would be near > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> the to of my list. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Erick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Apr 9, 2020, at 12:06 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> PM, Gus Heck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> <gus.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> In my view this brings us > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> up against a bit of an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> existential question. How > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> do we ensure quality of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> packages that are key to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Solr? I'm sure that there > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> are folks who don't find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the UI very useful, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it's important to others. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> The rationale that "elastic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> keeps their's separate" has > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to be tempered by the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> actual real differences > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> between Elastic and Solr. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Elastic has a corporate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> sponsor, a coordinated road > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> map, and explicitly ensures > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that all the bits that are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> maintained separately work > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> together (so that they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> don't have excessive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> support costs or bad first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> experiences that impact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> their bottom line etc.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Solr is in a different > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> place however, and we need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to carefully examine the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> question of whether > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> something that works for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Elastic works for us. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Lucidworks and several > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> other large companies do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> spend a lot of money on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> developers that contribute > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to Solr, but there is no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> organization around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> multiple components that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> MUST work together. Another > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> example of this is Solr and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Lucene, and our defense > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> against a lack of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> coordination of components > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> in that case has been to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> unify them into a single > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> release package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> So IMHO we need to answer 2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> 1.) Do we consider the UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> important. If I'm alone or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> in a minority in feeling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it's important, then so be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it and it doesn't really > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> matter what we do. (maybe a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> vote?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> 2.) If we make it "a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> package" how do we ensure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that important packages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> such as the UI are never > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> broken by a new release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> IMHO I don't thing we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> should tolerate a situation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> where things we consider > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> important are broken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> frequently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> For my part obviously my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> answer to 1 is "yes" :). As > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> for 2, one thing that comes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to mind is what the Ant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> project did (may still do?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> with (and my memory from 15 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> years ago is foggy here, so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> forgive me if something I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> say is not quite perfect) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the GUMP build server that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> ran ant builds for a bunch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> of different projects that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> depended on ant to ensure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> early detections of changes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that would break existing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> projects. If we have a good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> UI test suite and commit to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that being part of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> release build package that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> might be a solution. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> honestly don't actually > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> care where it lives, but I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> do think it hurts us if it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> becomes broken and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> unusable, or hard to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> install. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> My worry is that "Solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> developers are not UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> developers" is really > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> code-words for "I want to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> be able to break it and let > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> others clean up the mess, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> because I'm not a UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> developer". I have this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> worry with respect to all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> "packages", but I may be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> missing info from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> discussions about the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> package system, which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> initiated during a very > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> busy period for me so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> background links that I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> should have read are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> welcome if I've got > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> something wrong here :) I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> went looking for a SIP but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> didn't see it... I have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> found a google doc linked > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> from SOLR-13661 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Finally to a detail about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> one of the above > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> suggestions the option to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> automatically download and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> install the UI could be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> good, but that then > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> requires that packages be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> available from somewhere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that never goes away like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> maven central, or that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Apache commits to hosting a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> repository server > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> indefinitely, but again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that's surely been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> discussed WRT packages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> already... Using Github in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> such a way is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> being broken arbitrarily > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> when Github decides to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> restrict things for cost > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> reasons (ask Bower about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that one WRT rate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> limiting...) or the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> "repository" has to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> something local and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> therefore must be included > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> part of the distribution... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> at which point it's still a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> thing we distribute and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> since we're distributing it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> and we probably don't mean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to distribute broken stuff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> we still need UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> developers... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Also, I thought the package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> loading stuff was supposed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to be disabled by default > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> for security, that seems to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> conflict with or at least > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> complicate the notion of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> easily installing as a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> So "package" is a good for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> modularizing code, or for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> 3rd party (possibly paid) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> plugins (I have a client > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that might find that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> interesting in the future) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> but we have to ensure that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it doesn't lead to a lack > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> of maintenance for things > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that are critical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Incidentally though I've > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> said I favor Angular CLI, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> (significantly because I've > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> got some start on learning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it) it also occurs to me > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that perhaps anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> "modern" is a difficulty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> because those things all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> have a learning curve, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> maximizing accessibility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> and ease of modifications > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> for folks not steeped in UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> development might be our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> priority (different from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the priorities a commercial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> site would have). The flip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> side argument is that with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> a popular framework, it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> would be easier for UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> focused folks to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> contribute... but will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> they? and does that leave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> us perennially rewriting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the UI in whatever is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> popular? (maybe that's ok?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I think in all our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> decisions here we need to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> be very careful to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> distinguish how our needs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> may differ in unusual ways > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> from the needs of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> commercial web development. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> -Gus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:14 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> AM Erick Erickson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> <erickerick...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Marcus: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> re-reading the thread, it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> looks to me like the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> consensus from Noble and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Ishan and Jan is that as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> long as the new, nifty UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> is a separate package, go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> ahead and knock yourself > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> out ;). The objection is to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> making it part of the Solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> code base… We’ll all be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> thrilled with if we can rip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the current admin UI out ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> That said, I suspect it’ll > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> be one of the tighter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> packages. It’d be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> super-cool if we could run > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the UI tests on Jenkins say > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> once a day just to keep it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> up to date. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> The admin UI has always > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> been somewhat awkwardly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> bolted on the side of Solr, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it’d be great to have it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> have a more elegant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> architecture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> The other exciting thing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> would be that clients could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> then use the package code > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> as something they can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> incorporate/fork/whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Practically every client > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I’ve worked with at large > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> installations has rolled > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> their own dashboard. If > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> they could use a package as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> a starting point, it’d be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Erick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Apr 9, 2020, at 3:07 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> AM, Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <marcusea...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Hey Noble, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -1 is a definitive, so I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> want to clarify that you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> are saying you do not wish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to remove the EOL front > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> end and replace it with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> another one in the longer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> term? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I hear you! As a product > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> manager in my day job, my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> primary goal is to find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> features to cut! I spend a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> lot of time thinking about > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> non-essential vs used > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> heavily vs causes more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> problems than it's worth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I can tell you from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> watching the many people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> in the field at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Lucidworks, there are a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> lot of people who know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> quite a bit about Solr, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> but rely on the Admin UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> heavily because they feel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> comfortable there. Those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> people in effect help us > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> stay employed despite > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> never contributing or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> being capable of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> contributing to Solr. So > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> hear me out. I've got a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> proposal: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> To start, I can work on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> this app as an optional > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> package for your awesome > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> new package manager. It > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> will be the second one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I've worked on in my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> evenings and weekends btw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> The first was a package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> validator that I hope to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> eventually open source, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> but its complexity and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> lack of popularity because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> it is security ;( will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> likely make it the second > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> one I open source/finish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I'm also collaborating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> with a couple members of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the Lucidworks security > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> team on that one, but I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> have built the basics > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> already for them to build > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> upon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Back to the new UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> discussion and my update > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that I promised. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> My update was going to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that after evaluating the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> projects Jan posted, the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> most recent project that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Jan listed created a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> pretty good base to build > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> on. After lots of auditing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> of the packages and a bit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> of refactoring because the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> UI world moves fast, I was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> able to get it to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> transpile and run again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (as I'm sure it previously > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> did) and from (2290 vulns): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <image.png> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> no npm fix doesn't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> magically fix, I wish it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> did > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to (2 low sev, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> non-productions vulns): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <image.png> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> These two issues will not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> affect production and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> really only the unit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> tests. Besides, I plan to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> remove them before we get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to a stage even that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> matters. I've also started > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> investigating the level of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> effort for me to get it to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> feature parity with the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> current app. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> preliminary answer is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> very much compared to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> other work I've done in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> shorter time — working > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> with a jerk for a boss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (years ago, don't worry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Hatcher). I'm building a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> couple of the missing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> features as we speak. From > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the beginning, it will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> have infinitely more test > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> coverage and will be a lot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> more approachable to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> contemporary UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> developers. It will also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> make the Solr experience > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> for new developers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> simpler. The major design > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> changes that I have been > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> thinking about would be to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the cloud view and the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> query view. Both of those > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> are important, the first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to more experienced users, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and the second to less > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> advanced users though > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> occasionally an advanced > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> debugger or demo presenter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> in my experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> In the end Noble, this is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> about making Solr more > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> approachable to new users > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> not experts like you. The > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> growth of Solr adoption > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> only benefits you, so I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> would ask you to revisit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> your -1 at some point in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the near future when you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> see the progress and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> breadth of improvement. We > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> have had customers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> complain about the Admin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> UI and the community has > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> even complained about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I think this is the right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> thing to do. If you still > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> consider effectively > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> upgrading the current > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Admin UI as feature creep, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I can revisit the package > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> manager compromise or move > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the efforts elsewhere. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> respect your position. A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> search service is nothing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> without a strong and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> diverse set of skills and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> capabilities behind it and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> making it accessible to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> everyone who needs it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> For those who care, here's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> my 4 Node cluster of tech > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> products running locally. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <image.png> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> The shoulders of the homie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that put that scaffold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> together are broad! Props > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to him. I will volunteer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to put together extensive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> docs for JS devs who want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to contribute and make it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> better once we get it to a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> place where it replaces > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and improves upon the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> current option. I'll even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> sponsor some prizes for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> college kids or people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> recently out of work to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> get cranking on this bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> boy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Noble and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> everyone else, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> 11:20 PM Noble Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <noble.p...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Solr developers are not UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> experts. We are a search > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> service and such a service > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> should have nice clean > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> APIs + documentation. Is a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> UI useful ? yes. The last > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> thing we want today is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> another complex component > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> in Solr codebase that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> nobody understands or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> cannot maintain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> So, Solr UI can be hosted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> outside our codebase and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> we can have an option to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> install UI from that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> remote repo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> something like "bin/solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> install-gui" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I'm -1 on anymore feature > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> creep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> --Noble > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> 12:22 PM Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <marcusea...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Thanks again Gus. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Lots of people indeed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> misuse REST so we could go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> on and on about whether > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> requests are stateless or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> not in another thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Let's spare the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I think most everyone on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> this channel would be in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> agreement with you on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> separate app. I'll be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> opening a new ticket and a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> PR that will document a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> few things to make it easy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> for UI devs who know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> little to no Java how to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> get started. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Ishan, there's some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> significant UI expertise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> in the team. Erickson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> finds his way to open > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> every cookie jar. Erik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Hatcher wrote the first > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> version of Blacklight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I've seen Pugh do lots of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> work on Quepid's UI. Jan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and Kevin have done a lot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> of work, and so have many > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> others. The list goes on, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and *likes to work on UI* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> is a different discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Beyond committers because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I'm not a committer, I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> have UI expertise that I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> can polish off and improve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> for the sake of my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> interest and commitment to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the community and I like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to do it. I've also led UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> teams. I can help to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> steward the effort overall > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and keep things up to date > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> up to the point where I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> need to ask one of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> committers to help me get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> changes merged. I'll > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> probably even hire a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> developer to work on it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> once we are to that point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Expertise is not something > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that should block us but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> motivate us to expand this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> community and/or our own > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> skillsets long term. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Thank you both and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> everyone else, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 10:21 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> AM Gus Heck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <gus.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> While running it in an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> external node does ensure > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> separability, I don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> think it does a good job > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> of addressing my other > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> point of not needing to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> manage a 3rd server. It's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> still a server if it's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> started by java, and one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> still has to ensure it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> exists, and it will be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> extra hard to figure out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> how to configure it if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> started by Solr. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I'm strongly in favor of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> us having a UI from my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> perspective as a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> consultant it makes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> discovery of things like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> their startup parameters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and directories and such > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> very easy (just go to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> front page of the admin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> screen), and it's so much > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> easier to get a customer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> with security concerns and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> strict controls on who can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> access what (think banks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> military, etc) to share a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> web session where they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> drive the UI than to get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> direct access to machines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> It'll be a lot slower and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> much lower service to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> making people wait while I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> craft curl statements to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> paste into the web session > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (and then fix the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> inevitable typos, or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> detect when they missed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the last char of what I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> pasted, etc...). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I definitely against Solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> spawning some other server > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (node or otherwise) on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> it's own and thereby > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> requiring additional > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> system dependencies, or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> creating a second process > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that needs to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> configured and properly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> secured. To me that's even > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> worse than requiring the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> UI to run outside of Solr. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> We have a perfectly good > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> web container already, and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> furthermore there's a much > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> greater likelihood that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> maintainers will be facile > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> with java/j2ee than > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> anything else (IMHO). It's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> great if the framework we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> choose uses little or no > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> JSP/Servlet and is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> modernized with a 100% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> javascript, templated etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> front end, but the back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> end should be java/jetty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> because we've got lots of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> java folks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> If the back end matters > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> deeply then you're not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> really programming to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> MVC/REST style... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> So there's another $0.02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> :) and if you're not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> careful I'll give you an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> entire nickle's worth of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> ways people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> misuse/misunderstand the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> term REST :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -Gus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> 9:06 PM Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <marcusea...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Gus, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Your $.02 are worth a lot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> more than $.02 USD, so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> By separate app, I think I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> mean to endorse managed by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> a Node.js process started > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> by NPM. I don’t think that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> conflicts with what you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> have proposed. The NPM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> command should be issued > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> by Java || or Bash but I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> don’t think it would add > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> significant overhead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Also, seems like on CI and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> or precommit hooks front > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> end could be sizzled in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> parallel without adding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> much overhead. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> As for the front end > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> framework, the most > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> important things to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> consider in my view are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> simplicity and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> maintainability. We need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to do a thorough analysis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> on the ecosystem and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> issues like the size of a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> React project vs Angular > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> project vs Vue project, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> but React and Vue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> certainly have the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> velocity and the hearts if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the front end community > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> more than Angular. React > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> is MIT license now and for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> the foreseeable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> future thanks to the power > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> and reach of its > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> developers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <gus.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> +1 for Angular CLI / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Typescript since I've > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> fiddled with this in a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> minor way recently, Also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> MIT license is super > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> friendly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> As a disenfranchised > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> volunteer to the project, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I also assume voters on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> specific choices like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> frameworks will be helping > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> build in some respect at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> some point now or in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> future. Is that a fair or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> misguided assumption? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Marcus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> 17:15 Gus Heck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <gus.h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> +1 for Angular CLI / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Typescript since I've > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> fiddled with this in a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> minor way recently, Also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> MIT license is super > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> friendly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Separate App - hmm... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that's got some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> attraction, but also gives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> my stomach some churning > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> when I think about solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> now requiring management > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> of 3 different servers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (solr, something to serve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> UI and zookeeper). Adding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> more infrastructure gives > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> me pause with respect to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> all the smaller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> installations. I've had > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> several small self funded > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> startup clients and a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> clients with existing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> initial installs that they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> are outgrowing in places > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> where procuring new > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> machines and new software > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> is a 6-12 mo endeavor and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> both types seem to squirm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> when I make suggestions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> such as running zookeeper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> separately, (let alone 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> of them). I think separate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> looks good for medium to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> large folks or very large > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> companies that **already > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> have** a solr expert on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> hand, but hurts the small > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> clients and the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> departments in large orgs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that got started with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> insufficient > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> advice/expertise, so maybe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> - The UI should be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> installed by default > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> - it should be easy to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> remove it, or start with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> it disabled > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> - it should be self > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> contained and separately > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> downloadable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> My recent fiddling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> included figuring out how > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to make angular CLI play > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> nice in a J2ee war file > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> structure seen here: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> https://github.com/nsoft/ns-login > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> By play nice I mean, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> - build creates a war file > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> that "just works" when > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> installed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> - Angluar CLI commands work > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> - Angular serve command > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> works (for auto-reloading > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> ui changes, running on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> port 4200; note the use of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> proxy to allow it to talk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> to an already running web > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> container) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> My $0.02, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -Gus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> 11:03 AM Jörn Franke > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> <jornfra...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I think standalone would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> be very useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> I propose Angular with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Typescript - it fits to a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> more data centric approach > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> with data types etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Maybe even two types of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> UIs - Admin UI and a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> simple Search UI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Am 06.04.2020 um 16:53 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> schrieb Jan Høydahl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> <jan....@cominvent.com>: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for kickstarting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> this and bringing some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> fresh blood and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> enthusiasm :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Looks like others have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> had similar wish for a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> standalone Solr Admin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> App, here’s a quick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> GitHub search for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> inspiration: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> https://github.com/savantly-net/solr-admin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> (Angular, nice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> screenshots, 1y old) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> https://github.com/kezhenxu94/yasa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> (vuejs, impressive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> screenshots, 2y old) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> https://github.com/thereactleague/galaxy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> (React, no screenshots, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> 4y old) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> They all seem abandoned > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> but perhaps a new > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> official effort could > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> bring their developers in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> as contributors again? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> the people who work on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> the Admin UI do not need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> to be expected to know > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> the Java workflow, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> necessarily. This > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> reality widens the net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> for who can contribute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Agree. Frontend devs have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> been a shortage in this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> project, and if we can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> make it easier to attract > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> UI committers who feel at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> home and productive with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> the UI code, that would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> be a win. On the other > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> hand, if we expect that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> the UI will be maintained > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> by regular Java > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> committers, then anything > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> that makes it easier for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> them/us to contribute is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> also a win, like perhaps > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> strongly-typed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Again, thanks Marcus for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> reviving this topic. Let > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> us all try not to be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> overly ambitious here or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> shoot the initiative down > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> with bikeshedding. It is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> far more important to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> fuel the energy and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> momentum and get > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> something built than to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> remain stuck :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> Jan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> 6. apr. 2020 kl. 13:47 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> skrev Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> <m...@marcuseagan.com>: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Coming back to these > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> existential questions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> from my phone: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Jan Høydahl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Added 1 hour ago > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> There are many opinions > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> around admin UI. So I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> think the best place to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> start would be a new > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> mail-thread in dev@ to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> discuss the way forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Before we start a major > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> re-work, we should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> probably ask ourselves a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> few existential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> questions: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> • Should we turn Amin UI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> into a standalone app > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> instead of embedded in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Solr? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I think it should be a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> standalone app. There > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> are many advantages > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> gained from a separation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> of such concerns. Some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> of the ones include, the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> people who work on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Admin UI do not need to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> be expected to know the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Java workflow, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> necessarily. This > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> reality widens the net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> for who can contribute. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Testing becomes a lot > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> easier because JS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> developers are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> accustomed to building > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> tests for static assets > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> and self-contained node > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> apps. They generally > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> know less about testing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> a bit of JS within a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> massive Java project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> The test could also run > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> independently for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> changes that only affect > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> the front end. Adding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> test coverage without > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> adding time to tests > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> sounds awesome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> There are quite a few > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> tickets over the years > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> that have seemed to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> suggest that people want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> more fine-grained > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> control over the Solr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> admin UI overall. Two > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> recent tickets discussed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> topics like running a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Solr Admin app on only > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> one node and disabling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> it al together for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> whatever reason. See: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-14014. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> • What UI framework? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Guess anything is better > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> than current EOL, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> will largely depend on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> who is willing to do the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> job! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> I’m happy to take this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> on (and willing to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> follow through on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> completing in my nights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> and weekends), but I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> mostly framework > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> agnostic. My stronge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> preference would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> React, provided the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> license is kosher. There > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> was one blip of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> “practically unusable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> for most orgs” a couple > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> years back, but Facebook > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> made it right really > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> soon after. However, I’m > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> flexible. Angular (not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> JS) and Vue are also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> great. I would recommend > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> we consider Typescript > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> also because of the size > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> of project and number of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> strongly-typed devs on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> this mailing list. My > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> only reservation with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> TypeScript, though it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> may not apply in this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> case, is that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> supersets of JS have > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> changed a lot more than > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> the frameworks. While > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> CoffeeScript was an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> unnecessary layer of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> abstraction from my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> limited perspective, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> TypeScript might make JS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> more embraceable to a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> list of Java hackers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> • Current UI has no test > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> coverage, can we do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> better with the new UI? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> It’s imperative.React, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> Angular, and Vue each > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> make it easy to include > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> tests. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SOLR-12276?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=17076204#comment-17076204 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> http://www.needhamsoftware.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (work) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> http://www.the111shift.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (play) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> http://www.needhamsoftware.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (work) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> http://www.the111shift.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> (play) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Noble Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> For additional commands, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> dev-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> http://www.needhamsoftware.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> (work) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> http://www.the111shift.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> (play) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> For additional commands, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> dev-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Noble Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marcus Eagan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@lucene.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > http://www.needhamsoftware.com (work) > > > > > http://www.the111shift.com (play) > > > -- > > > Marcus Eagan > > > > > > -- > Marcus Eagan >
