Evidently you know something I don’t, and I hope you’ll explain it to me.
For the 3rd time, >>>>> Which developers have to pause what activities? — Right now there are usually release votes in parallel. As I pointed out, all 308 could be in parallel. What relevance does your calculation have to anything? This discussion looks to me like the others I’ve seen about shortening release votes: someone is basically complaining that the apache process is inconvenient for a particular subset of developers on a particular project, without examining what the actual roadblocks to effective development are or what other solutions might be possible. In particular, I’d like to see an analysis of what would happen if a “release” was for a particular project plus all downstream changes needed to use it, whether as a single vote or as concurrent votes. Thanks David Jencks > On Nov 18, 2022, at 1:48 PM, Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> wrote: > > damn me > > 16848 hours = 702 days = almost TWO YEARS of Maven releases just to build > Maven itself. > > But, if you consider all apache artifacts (almost all, unsure is there > other in different groupId) > [cstamas@blondie local (master %)]$ find * -type f -name "*.jar" | grep > "commons-" | wc -l > 45 > [cstamas@blondie local (master %)]$ find * -type f -name "*.jar" | grep > "org/apache" | wc -l > 263 > > In total, 308 JARs = 22176 hours = 924 days = 2,5 years. > > T > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 10:30 PM Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> > wrote: > >> David, >> >> I agree, and understand. >> >> But let me step back a bit: >> ASF (as it all started around httpd) as a foundation hosts MANY projects >> wildly different projects, and those projects usually have a handful (few, >> when compared to Maven) of "deliverables" or "artifacts" being released. Or >> in other words (and am not trying to lessen their complexity or nor to >> present Maven as something "special" here), most of ASF projects have few, >> very few deliverables (again, I am talking about the majority, correct me >> if I am wrong). Really, are there any statistics about: >> - number of reposes used per ASF project >> - number of different (!) artifact releases done per project? >> >> Maven on the other hand, while id DOES also have ONE "downloadable" item >> on download page (https://maven.apache.org/download.cgi) we all know that >> story does not end there: it is known to "download the whole internet", >> just to run Maven "mvn clean verify" it will download zillion of plugins >> and their dependant artifacts (and I did not even mention 3rd party, non >> ASF plugins). So, Maven, as a "deliverable" or "product" is definitely not >> one ZIP file you see on the download page. ASF Maven project has many >> interconnected reposes/artifacts/releases. >> >> So, what I want to say: is it possible that ASF "way" works for "typical" >> projects, while Maven is more like "atypical"? >> >> Or, to make my example more concrete: >> 1. I checked out master of maven from http://github.com/apache/maven >> 2. built it w/ pristine local repo >> 3. and run some stats on it: >> 4. https://gist.github.com/cstamas/ee2bba03f61d09fa3f5e9c57844207b7 >> >> This simply means that for the end user, the "experience of ASF Maven" is >> literally 1 (that on download page) + 233 = 234 releases. And it is all >> very interconnected. >> >> Btw, I just downloaded 16848 hours :) >> >> T >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 9:53 PM David Jencks <david.a.jen...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> You are free to do your own research. I’ve seen plenty of “but we want >>> the convenience of <72hr releases” discussions over the years, and the >>> feedback I’ve seen is consistently that the reason for the “should” rather >>> than “must” is to account for emergency security patches etc, not normal >>> releases. >>> >>> David Jencks >>> >>>> On Nov 18, 2022, at 11:54 AM, Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> As I wrote, we did have examples of changes + cascading, it is okay. >>>> >>>> But I don't agree with your statement about the board, as they >>> themselves >>>> state "should" not "must" for 72h. If it does not cut with them, they >>>> should modify the refd page(s). >>>> >>>> And it's not "we're impatient" either, part of the response for that is >>> in >>>> "hasty changes" canned response. >>>> >>>> Simply put: >>>> - people see releases as a chore, as some "burden" that needs to be done >>>> once in a while (see refd Slack messages in 1st mail), and when it >>> comes to >>>> be done, "let's do it when it's worth". We have MANY user questions on >>> ML >>>> of type "when is X released? As the issue [the user is interested in] is >>>> fixed". And we have too many "dropped balls" in our court. IMHO, >>> modifying >>>> the process (to take less than 72+2h) is one step toward making release >>>> less painful, less blocker. >>>> >>>> Fun fact: maven project consists of (not sure of exact count, just >>>> guessing) 150+ repositories (GH on ASF org gives 153 when I type in >>>> "maven-" in the repo search bar). This is a LOT. If we'd, for some >>> reason, >>>> start releasing all of those in 72h windows, it would be 10800 hours, or >>>> 450 days, more than a year. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 8:34 PM David Jencks <david.a.jen...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Which developers have to pause what activities? >>>>> >>>>> From previous discussions elsewhere, I’m strongly of the opinion that >>> < 72 >>>>> hr release votes are intended only for emergency security fixes and >>> similar >>>>> events, and that “we’re impatient” isn’t going to cut it with the >>> board. >>>>> It certainly wouldn’t with me. >>>>> >>>>> How many of these annoyances would be eliminated by an easy way to >>> release >>>>> and vote on a set of changed artifacts + the cascading dependencies >>> all at >>>>> once? >>>>> >>>>> thanks >>>>> David Jencks >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 18, 2022, at 11:17 AM, Tamás Cservenák <ta...@cservenak.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> David, >>>>>> >>>>>> I just meant that there is a "forced pause" of 72h. >>>>>> >>>>>> T >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 7:50 PM David Jencks < >>> david.a.jen...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 from the sidelines. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don’t understand >>>>>>>>>> * current process causes (forced) context switching, and can >>> likely >>>>>>> lead to >>>>>>> human mistakes: when the release vote is announced, developer is >>> FORCED >>>>> to >>>>>>> stop for 72h and possibly switch. This is just a productivity killer. >>>>>>> <<< >>>>>>> Who is forced to do anything and for what reason? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@maven.apache.org
