On Fri, Aug 05, 2005 at 03:13:49PM +0200, Thomas Van de Velde wrote:
> Hi Vincent,
> 
> Thanks for your view on this. Just for the record, as you already know, I am 
> a big fan of Maven and I will continue to use and promote Maven whether or 
> not it uses Spring. ;-) I just want to dig a bit deeper in this discussion 
> as it's something that's been on my mind for a while and I am not sure that 
> it's been fully clarified yet. I am sure some other users may be asking the 
> same question. 
> 
> (I've added a couple of comments below)
> 
> On 8/5/05, Vincent Massol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Thomas,
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Thomas Van de Velde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: vendredi 5 août 2005 11:14
> > > To: Maven Developers List
> > > Subject: Re: [m2] getting involved?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > BTW - I like plexus. Haven't noticed the project before. I had used
> > > > avalon and had a look at pico+nano before. Plexus seems to be 
> > powerfull
> > > > like avalon containers but less invasive (like the spring-framework).
> > > > Maybe I'll use that in my project. Would you again decide for plexus 
> > if
> > > > you'd choose now?
> > >
> > >
> > > In what way would Spring be more invasive than Plexus? My issue with the
> > > Plexus container is that it is completely unknown to most developers, 
> > that
> > > there are no books and hardly any documentation on the site. I assume
> > > there
> > > must be good reasons for starting yet another IoC container (Can 
> > somebody
> > > elaborate on those reasons?)
> > 
> > There are 2 viewpoints you need to consider:
> > 
> > 1/ First viewpoint: As a Maven2 user or as a Maven2 plugin writer
> > 
> > As a Maven user/plugin writer you don't have to care as it's transparent 
> > for
> > you, even if you're writing plugins. So it's a non-issue.
> 
> 
> This makes sense to me. The philosophy of IoC and DI is to provide services 
> around POJO's (let me correct; MOJO's ;-), it should be pretty transparent 
> for the end user. Just wondering here if it would be usefull for users to 
> profit from the tool support that comes with Spring (beandoc, Spring-IDE, 
> ... and probably other stuff to come). Also, I think the out-of-box support 
> for JMX would make sense for remote configuration of a Maven build server. 
> You could also have a plugin that wants to profit from a persistence 
> template to e.g. write results in a database, or Web Services to call a 
> build target remotely.

As both a Maven and a Plexus developer I can say that adding JMX support
for Continuum[1] (the Maven CI server) will be trivial. There is already a
SOAP and a XMLRPC interface.

> 
> 2/ Second viewpoint: As a Maven core developer.
> > 
> > In that case, you're the one developing the solution and it's your call to
> > choose whatever technology you wish. The current Maven developers are 
> > aware
> > of the other IOC containers but for now they have preferred to use their
> > own. 
> 
> Here we have a misunderstanding. My question is not meant as critisism. It's 
> mearly a reflection that I am making. I think it's a fair question to ask. 
> Since this hasn't been fully responded to on TSS, I ask again.
> 
> I do agree with you that one drawback is its support. That said it does
> > also bring lots of advantages to them like the ability to quickly make
> > changes to it to support Maven2 use cases. I believe those advantages are
> > currently greater that the disadvantages.
> 
> 
> Fully agree. You, as a Maven developer, own all of the code so you can 
> easily customize. So would Plexus be more a build-oriented IoC container? 

No, Plexus is a truly generic container. It started out as a
implementation of the Avalon component API (which is still supports).
Plexus is used in several other applications (written by both us and
others), so it's not a build-oriented container, but it is true that we
have a lot of build-oriented tools and components :) 

It is also possible for Plexus to add support for other component
lifecycles so if you really want to use your Spring beans in Plexus it
won't be a mountain of work. Let me know if you ever want to try.

> Conclusion: 99.9999% of all persons around Maven 2 are users and they don't
> > need to care as it's transparent for them.
> 
> 
> That's why I posted the question on the developers list ;-)
> 
> -Vincent
> > 
> > PS: This represents only my analysis of the situation. I'm not speaking 
> > for
> > the m2 team although I believe they would agree with this :-)
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > 
> > 
> Would this be a correct conclusion?
> 
> Plugin developers and M2 users, are not really exposed to Plexus. You can 
> easily write your plugins without having to learn about another IoC 
> container. 

That's definitely a pretty good conclusion, but I have to add that there
might be cases where you might have to write Plexus components but we hope
to keep those cases to a minumum and that we can collect as much commonly
used code in shared components.

[1]: http://maven.apache.org/continuum

--
Trygve

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