If the compiler doesn't reliably detect changes, then it is a HUGE problem!
All the later stages can only depend on the results of the previous ones. To not trigger a necessary rebuild is WAY worse than to rebuild a few classes too much. Exactly that is the reason why most people always use "mvn CLEAN install" all the time currently. LieGrue, strub >________________________________ > From: Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> >To: Maven Developers List <[email protected]>; Mark Struberg ><[email protected]> >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:11 PM >Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils > > > > >On Aug 30, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: > >If you are attempting to remove plexus-utils initially without a >>> >> >>binary compatible drop-in replacement with code from Apache then I'm -1. >>> >>Please re-read my previous mail. We will NOT drop plexus-utils! We will just >>move maven core off it for most parts. >> >> > > >Hmm, what's the difference exactly? > > >> >>we've had incremental build support in m2e forever >>>You don't see most of the 'incremental' problems in m2 because the recompile >>>already gets done by eclipse itself I assume. E.g. the maven-compiler-plugin >>>until recently failed to detect cross-class relations and did only recompile >>>the file which got changed. I changed that only recently. >> >> > > >The compiler is not the problem, even for large code bases the compiler is >incredibly fast. Profile your average build and it's not the compilation >that's the bottleneck. But again I would argue you don't need to make drastic >changes in the core to make incremental builds work. Some, but they are few. > > >>LieGrue, >>strub >> >> >> >>________________________________ >>> >>From: Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> >>> >>To: Maven Developers List <[email protected]>; Mark Struberg >><[email protected]> >>> >>Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:49 PM >>> >>Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >>> >> >>> >>You need to do one thing at time and not conflate the replacement of the >>plexus-utils code with anything else you want to implement. Mixing the two >>will almost certainly lead to problems. >>> >> >>> >>If you are attempting to remove plexus-utils initially without a binary >>compatible drop-in replacement with code from Apache then I'm -1. I'm not >>going to change that position because I think you're needlessly causing >>problems. If you want to replace the code go for it, just do it safely. >>> >> >>> >>Incremental builds are a separate matter all together and can be done in a >>branch, we've had incremental build support in m2e forever and you don't need >>to massively change the core at all to do it. In fact it works right now with >>the core as it is. Put a complete proposal together (I've seen the initial >>ideas) because if you think you need to drastically change the core for >>incremental builds I believe you are incorrect. >>> >> >>> >>At any rate, one thing at a time. If you want to replace the code in >>plexus-utils with something else do that first as a separate, clear endeavor. >>> >> >>> >>On Aug 30, 2012, at 8:40 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: >>> >> >>> >>I fear my perspective is pretty different. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>To _not_ produce a 1:1 drop in replacement gives us a few benefits. Actually >>it doesn't matter which version maven itself uses as this wont affect user >>builds. >>>> >> >>>> >>BUT it would _heavily_ affect users if their old builds wont work anymore >>because we dropped some ancient signature. >>>> >> >>>> >>And there is a well cast technical reason for this change: I need >>new/improved functionality for the incremental build. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>My proposal is to move maven itself to a much more progressive/improved >>version (thus off plexus-utils) but keep the old signatures and the original >>plexus-utils around for plugins which still uses it. >>>> >> >>>> >>If a plugin likes to use the new maven-core-utils then this is perfectly >>possible as well of course. >>>> >> >>>> >>LieGrue, >>>> >>strub >>>> >> >>>> >>________________________________ >>>>> >>From: Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> >>>>> >>To: Maven Developers List <[email protected]>; Mark Struberg >><[email protected]> >>>>> >>Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:24 PM >>>>> >>Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>If you can create a drop-in replacement for the plexus-utils code go for it. >>I believe this exercise is of little value users and you run the real risk of >>introducing problems for no technical reason, but if you want to do the work >>that's your prerogative. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>So much time was spent to preserve the existing signatures and behaviour in >>the container swap and this is not something to be taken lightly, and you >>should do what has been done in the past. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>I think the path to do this if you want to get rid of the plexus-utils >>reference is to reduce the foot print to the classes being used in the core >>and then drop in that reduced JAR. Create a replacement with the code you've >>copied, reimplemented, improved yet binary compatible and test that for a >>while. Binary compatible in all respects, package and signature. And from >>there then make any subsequent changes. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>I honestly am not overly concerned with plugins because they can be fixed >>relatively quickly, but doing low value changes in the core for swapping out >>one set of code for another is seriously playing with fire. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>If you initially are intending to change code in the core to accommodate this >>change I see no technical reason for it, is dangerous and I'm -1. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>On Aug 30, 2012, at 8:03 AM, Mark Struberg wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>While digging thru the plexus-utils usage I wonder whether we should place >>the maven-utils in maven-core or maven-shared. >>>>> >> >>>>>> >>maven-core doesn't yet have any maven-shared dependency it seems. Which means >>if we like to use them in maven-core as well we should relocate >>maven-shared-utils to the maven-3 core module. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>wdyt? >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>LieGrue, >>>>>> >>strub >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >>From: Kristian Rosenvold <[email protected]> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>To: Maven Developers List <[email protected]> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>Cc: >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:48 AM >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>Subject: Re: Removing unused code from maven-shared-utils >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>Well obviously given the current number of failing >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>tests,maven-shared-utils is going nowhere right now ;) >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>I will do a test-migration and remove unused code in >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>org.apache.maven.shared.utils.io before we release. >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>Kristian >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>> >>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >>Thanks, >>>>> >> >>>>> >>Jason >>>>> >> >>>>> >>---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>Jason van Zyl >>>>> >>Founder & CTO, Sonatype >>>>> >>Founder, Apache Maven >>>>> >>http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>> >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people can fix >>bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- Paul Graham >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>> >>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >>Thanks, >>> >> >>> >>Jason >>> >> >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>Jason van Zyl >>> >>Founder & CTO, Sonatype >>> >>Founder, Apache Maven >>> >>http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>> >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >>> >>happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will >>> >>elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come >>> >>and sit softly on your shoulder ... >>> >> >>> >>-- Thoreau >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >> >> > >Thanks, > >Jason > >---------------------------------------------------------- >Jason van Zyl >Founder & CTO, Sonatype >Founder, Apache Maven >http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >--------------------------------------------------------- > > >Three people can keep a secret provided two of them are dead. > > -- Benjamin Franklin > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
