Daniel, Just one very quick point : I do not totally agree about "Jira isn't working.". What is making you think that ? Please can you elaborate ? From your comment we may find solutions...
Jacques From: "Daniel Kunkel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <dev@ofbiz.apache.org> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Refactoring Create Order process during OFBiz DevelopersConference Sponsored by Hotwax Media > Hi > > First, please understand I hold you in incredibly high regard, and > apologize for causing any frustration... You and Andy have created an > amazing software tool that I'm basing my business on, and you've given > it away. I love that! As you can see, your efforts are now multiplying > in to a system that has a life of its own, which will eventually change > the face of many businesses throughout the world. > > During this process, you've needed to exercise great control in choosing > what to allow into the project, and what to reject. Since I often update > my production system to the svn head, I'm very glad someone is there > watching, and if you think about it, it makes sense that access has been > very limited to just the professionals that have devoted themselves to > the project. > > However, as it grows, there are more and more newbies that want to help > in their little way. Many *non-committers* who have wanted to give back > to the project have been stifled and frustrated, often because their > contributions were not appropriate, but sometimes simply because the > committers are too busy to review/test/correct their contributions. In > other cases, the resultant solutions are too specific to just their > business, or as a employee, the business although willing to donate the > code back, was not willing to devote the time needed to make the > consumable by the project at large. > > So, what can we do to create a space where non-committers can share > their bits with the community? Please understand, we are agreed that > neither of us would want their contributions running on a system. > > - The source forge sandbox isn't really a good fit, because, as Chris > has researched, the legal ramifications of donating it back to the > project outweigh the benefits begotten from the group effort. > > - Forcing developers to work alone isn't working very well. > > - A sandbox with lots of committers isn't going to work. Thanks for > explaining that in your e-mail, I didn't realize this wasn't workable > till now. > > - Jira isn't working. > > - The wiki could possibly work, but it doesn't go through the legal > process with each submission, and I cringe even thinking of trying to > work with code in wiki. Eek. > > - Even using the wiki, to catalog which jira issues are "in play" is > unwieldy. Patch nightmare actually. > > David, can you think of way to make a space in this community where the > new/non-polished committers can easily share and play together with > their ideas where they won't hurt the bigger project until the > components are well proven? > > Would it work to have a sandbox that is managed by the existing > committers, or perhaps a few new committers? As a committer, you > wouldn't need to give nearly the same amount of time and attention to > trying to make sure the commitment met best practices, free of bugs, > etc. Any developer could share their stuff that they've implemented for > their business, or other neat components. And, since the commitments > would be in svn on the other side of the "Donate to the Apache > Foundation legal radio button, it'd be easy for these developers to > collaborate and slowly bring unworkable buggy messes into gold. Finally, > users could easily find and try the components without mucking with > patch files, etc. > > Thanks > > Daniel > > On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 00:45 -0700, David E. Jones wrote: > > Okay, I just wrote a huge thing and deleted it. There might have been > > good stuff in there, but I am really frustrated because I've said it > > all before and based on the comments from Chris it doesn't seem like > > anything it making it out there. > > > > If you're not a lawyer, then reference documents and processes > > already established. > > > > I'm not even going to bother going into detail unless people are > > willing to: > > > > 1. describe their understanding of how what they want to do would be > > done under current policy > > 2. describe why that doesn't work for what you want to do > > 3. describe how the existing processes need to changed in order to > > accommodate it > > > > A sandbox is a BAD BAD BAD BAD IDEA. Like you mentioned Daniel it > > would create a huge mess. I'm afraid one of two things would happen: > > > > 1. nothing > > 2. a lot > > > > In the case of number 1 it's not worth the effort to set it up. In > > the case of #2 it would required more effort to administer and > > monitor than we have resources for in OFBiz. There is no way I'd even > > think about doing this under the ASF umbrella because I am not > > willing to take on the responsibility of vetting a large number of > > committers and recommending them as committers in the ASF, which is > > BIG DEAL, and a responsibility and some people seem to be forgetting > > that. > > > > If you want to be a committer you have to help with the project. You > > have to take ownership of it, defend it, be committed to it, and so > > on. Okay, now I'm doing what I was in the 2 page email I just deleted > > and I'm stopping. > > > > If you want to know more about becoming and being a committer and > > about contributing to OFBiz, READ THE DARN DOCUMENTS! > > > > I don't know WHY these questions are coming up here. Stop asking > > them. Read the documents. I won't be baited into this any more. It's > > a waste of time, and all based on supposition and not any real > > problems or issues as far as I can see. > > > > If you develop something outside of OFBiz and want to contribute it, > > here is the page describing how it works: > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html > > > > This is basically a streamlined incubation process for code going > > into existing projects. > > > > If you really want to help and be involved in the project it means > > working on OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF, NOT YOUR OWN! Yes, it makes it > > easier to get your own stuff in but if that is all you're about > > related to the project, then being a committer isn't for you. > > > > If you want to know more about contributing and being a committer, > > read the docs: > > > > http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/mQ > > http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/r > > > > If you want to know more about licensing and legal issues, read the > > docs: > > > > http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html > > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html > > http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html > > http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html > > > > For a lot of good information, broaden the scope and study under: > > > > http://www.apache.org/dev/ > > > > These were not written because someone was looking for some > > entertainment. They were written so things wouldn't have to be > > explained over and over. > > > > I'm calling it a day now, as soon as I take care of some real issues, > > and as long as my son with the flu doesn't throw up again. Sorry, > > this is really frustrating, and really silly. Reality sucks, but we > > all have to live with it. > > > > If people want to help, then help. Don't just ask for help. Start by > > being a giver, not a taker. > > > > If this sounds a bit harsh, great! Go for a walk and think about how > > things work in real life, then read it again. If you're still upset, > > read it again. Then go read all of the documents referenced. Then if > > you still have a question, send it on in, but PLEASE try to look at > > it from the point of a MEMBER of the OFBiz community, and not a user > > of OFBiz who really doesn't want to get involved. > > > > If you're asking "how are you going to solve this problem" then > > you're asking the wrong question. If you want to participate as "how > > can I solve this problem", if "I" can't, then do with "how can we > > solve this problem". I don't mean that is what should be in your > > email, I mean that is what should be in your head. If you can't find > > an answer yourself that is 100% okay, just start a discussion and > > accept what you asked for. > > > > If you don't like the answer explain why it doesn't work for you, > > which brings us back to the beginning of this email... > > > > -David > > > > > > On Jan 25, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote: > > > > > David > > > > > > Can you explain your reticence to adding an Apache OFBiz sandbox where > > > more members of the community could share their work? > > > > > > I can see this section possibly getting a disorganized over time with > > > *junk*... but it can be deleted easily enough. As a top level project > > > would it possible and better to organize a sub project for this? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 12:41 -0800, Chris Howe wrote: > > >> I think we're talking about two different things. You're talking > > >> about > > >> developing and I'm talking about legal issues. The manner of > > >> developing was already discussed in OFBIZ-499. The only legal way to > > >> use JIRA to collaborate this type of thing is to keep sending updated > > >> patches to JIRA or to have a committer review and add it to a > > >> specialized application. Neither one of these is speed of > > >> development > > >> friendly. > > >> > > >> Legal concerns wouldn't have been one of the primary driving > > >> forces of > > >> moving to the ASF if it were true that "we've done fine for years". > > >> The project still has technical exposure to a C & D order as the CLA > > >> only covered works the copyright holder gave directly to the ASF not > > >> the works the copyright holder gave to the OFBIZ project prior to > > >> incubation. IANAL, and I don't think there is significant exposure, > > >> but it is still there. That opinion isn't based on the vehicle > > >> used to > > >> create Apache OFBiz, but on the impression of kindheartedness from > > >> the > > >> members of the community prior to incubation. > > >> > > >> I don't want to speculate on the legal relationship the group that > > >> worked on the anon checkout had, but I would suspect that it > > >> generated > > >> some negative legal exposure as well and that the proposed setup of > > >> Developers Conference will add to that. > > >> > > >> The only feedback that I've received from the general incubator list > > >> are speculations, all with the caveat that the poster is not a lawyer > > >> either and no one has been willing to post it to the legal-discuss > > >> list. > > >> > > >> This issue is one of the MAJOR reasons for the existence of non- > > >> profit > > >> entities like the ASF, FSF, and SPI. So again, I ask you to > > >> reconsider > > >> the need of a more public sandbox where this kind of community > > >> collaboration can be done without the complications of copyright > > >> infringement, or at the very least pose the question to legal-discuss > > >> for a formal opinion from those representing the ASF's interests. It > > >> is my understanding that when it's added to Apache owned SVN, ASF is > > >> the copyright holder of the collective work instead of an impromptu > > >> partnership where the individuals have no legal authority to offer a > > >> collective work. > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Chris > > >> --- "David E. Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >>> I REALLY don't think you need a sandbox for this. We've done fine > > >>> for > > >>> > > >>> years without one, even with the recently re-done ecommerce > > >>> anonymous > > >>> > > >>> checkout process and alternative checkout processes which were > > >>> developed entirely outside of OFBiz. > > >>> > > >>> Getting this stuff done is mostly a matter of knowing what you're > > >>> doing and having a clear goal to work towards, a design of sorts if > > >>> you will. A sandbox won't help that. > > >>> > > >>> Once you have a design you can start building it without touching > > >>> the > > >>> > > >>> current stuff, just make it an alternate path and don't break > > >>> anything existing along the way. Once it is complete, then another > > >>> patch can go in to remove the old code. > > >>> > > >>> It's that simple. That process has been followed well over a hundred > > >>> > > >>> times over the life of OFBiz and even for those with commit access > > >>> it's the only way to go. If you don't have commit access, it's even > > >>> better because you can develop until you're stuck or out of time, > > >>> then throw in a patch and have it committed without breaking > > >>> anything > > >>> > > >>> else, even if the new thing isn't working 100%. > > >>> > > >>> -David > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Jan 25, 2007, at 12:05 PM, Chris Howe wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hey Anil, > > >>>> > > >>>> I've begun some of this already. I'm taking the approach of > > >>> passing > > >>>> the cart to a simple method that first checks the order type and > > >>> then > > >>>> calls a method or service that is focused on that order type. Each > > >>>> order type service will call a multitude of methods/services that > > >>>> prepare the cart data to be entered into the datasource. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would love to collaborate on this, but because of the size, it's > > >>>> rather difficult to do by passing patches back and forth through > > >>> JIRA > > >>>> without having a reference point that SVN provides. This is one of > > >>>> those things that the ofbiz-sandbox project would be good for, but > > >>> it > > >>>> still has a legal issue that will prevent it from being entered > > >>> back > > >>>> into the project. I can as an individual grant Apache the license > > >>> it > > >>>> needs for the work I do, you as an individual can grant Apache the > > >>>> license it needs for the work you do, but without each of us > > >>> assuming > > >>>> the liability of a partnership we cannot grant a license for the > > >>> work > > >>>> as a whole. The only way around this is to use ofbiz-sandbox SVN > > >>> and > > >>>> make patches for each commit and each of us resubmit our own patch > > >>> to > > >>>> OFBiz JIRA with the order they need to be applied in. > > >>>> > > >>>> This would be sooooo much easier if the members of OFBiz PMC would > > >>>> respond on including a public sandbox in Apache OFBiz as each SVN > > >>>> commit will be licensed to Apache, and Apache will be the owner of > > >>> the > > >>>> work as a whole instead of an impromptu partnership being the > > >>> owner. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> --- Anil Patel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> I planning to participate in this developer conference. I am > > >>>>> interested in > > >>>>> contributing towards making Order Entry process more flexible. If > > >>>>> there are > > >>>>> Others who will be interested we can start some ground work. I > > >>>>> request one > > >>>>> of the commiters who has interest in this to Please lead this > > >>> effort. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The anonymous checkout process in Ecommerce component provides > > >>> some > > >>>>> high > > >>>>> level guiding principals. Few things that I can think of are > > >>>>> 1) moving some code that's embedded in Java classes into small > > >>> simple > > >>>>> methods. > > >>>>> 2) Moving process control logic from event handlers to Controller > > >>>>> file. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Any Ideas > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Regards > > >>>>> Anil Patel > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 1/16/07, David E. Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> NOTE: I'm just sending this to the dev list as this event is > > >>> meant > > >>>>>> mainly for those who want to be involved with development of > > >>> OFBiz > > >>>>>> itself. There will be a variety of projects going on and we hope > > >>>>>> everyone will be able to work on both paid and fun stuff, but the > > >>>>>> results will all be going right back into OFBiz. Still, everyone > > >>> is > > >>>>>> welcome to attend and join the "party" so if you know of someone > > >>>>> who > > >>>>>> might be interested but isn't subscribed to the dev mailing list, > > >>>>>> please forward it on to them. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> NOTE2: While most of this conference will be centered around > > >>>>>> development, if you aren't a developer it doesn't mean you can't > > >>>>>> come. It would be great to have, for example, people like > > >>> business > > >>>>>> analysts and technical writers to help with requirements, design, > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>> documentation and such would be great! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Included below is the original email about this, and most of the > > >>>>>> information there is still applicable. Here are a few decisions, > > >>>>>> based on feedback: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. the conference dates will be 5-9 March 2007 (Monday - Friday), > > >>>>> and > > >>>>>> may spill over into Sat the 10th > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 2. you don't have to come for the entire conference, but we > > >>>>> recommend > > >>>>>> coming for at least Mon-Wed or Wed-Fri as we'll schedule > > >>> big-group > > >>>>>> meetings and any presentations for Wednesday; if you can come for > > >>>>> the > > >>>>>> whole week, please do, it'll be great! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 3. people are welcome to come and enjoy local attractions for the > > >>>>>> weekend before and/or after (it will still be cool in the area > > >>>>> here, > > >>>>>> snowy in the mountains for skiing/boarding/snowmobiling, and > > >>>>>> depending on weather it can be a great time for visiting the > > >>>>> deserts > > >>>>>> and canyons south of here) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 4. the cost to cover the meeting rooms, snacks, infra stuff, etc > > >>>>> will > > >>>>>> be $175 for the week (or $35/day) per person; we will have > > >>> wireless > > >>>>>> internet access, and I have a bridge if anyone needs wired > > >>> access; > > >>>>> we > > >>>>>> will have at least 2 projectors and perhaps other large monitors > > >>> to > > >>>>>> facilitate group development and discussion > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 5. meals, lodging, etc are not included in the main price, but > > >>>>> we'll > > >>>>>> have 5-9 rooms available in the building (for $20-30 per night, > > >>>>> first > > >>>>>> come first serve); there is a decent hotel in town as well for > > >>>>> around > > >>>>>> $80 per night (contact me for details); for meals there are > > >>> various > > >>>>>> restaurants within walking distance > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 6. the attendance cap is initially 20 people; there seems to be a > > >>>>> lot > > >>>>>> of interest in this, so if we go over that we'll raise it by > > >>>>> perhaps > > >>>>>> 5-10 more people and convert some other adjacent rooms in the > > >>>>>> building to be for group meeting use as well (we're planning on 2 > > >>>>> big > > >>>>>> rooms, plus a fairly big room with a small kitchen in it) > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 7. the actual development goals are not finalized, but there is > > >>>>> quite > > >>>>>> a bit of interest in various things on the original list I > > >>> included > > >>>>>> (below), the big things seem to be testing infrastructure and > > >>>>> project > > >>>>>> management functionality > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> To register (ASAP please, to make my job of planning easier!), > > >>>>> please > > >>>>>> contact me by email ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) with the following > > >>>>>> information: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> 1. your name, company name, contact info (phone, email if > > >>> different > > >>>>>> than from address) > > >>>>>> 2. how many in your group (if more than one, their names too) > > >>>>>> 3. plans (as much as known) for how many days and which days > > >>>>>> 4. lodging preference - in the building (private rooms, shared > > >>>>>> toilets/showers) how many rooms, or nearby hotel (I'll respond > > >>> with > > >>>>>> contact info for the nice place close by, or there is a "fleabag" > > >>>>>> motel place too though not sure if I'd recommend it) > > >>>>>> 5. snack/diet preferences > > >>>>>> 6. local travel plans: do you need a ride, or do you plan to > > >>> rent/ > > >>> > > >> === message truncated === > > >> > > > -- > > > Daniel > > > > > > *-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*- > > > Have a GREAT Day! > > > > > > Daniel Kunkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > BioWaves, LLC http://www.BioWaves.com > > > 14150 NE 20th St. Suite F1 > > > Bellevue, WA 98007 > > > 800-734-3588 425-895-0050 > > > http://www.Apartment-Pets.com http://www.Illusion-Optical.com > > > http://www.Card-Offer.com http://www.RackWine.com > > > http://www.JokesBlonde.com http://www.Brain-Fun.com > > > *-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*-.,,.-*"*- > > > > >