Tim, Jacopo,
Well, since you put this in the open, I guess I might as well re-examine my
previous posts.
In Jacopo's case, it all did start out with me appreciating his help. In one of my first posts, I
made the mistake of recalling that it was Jacopo who corrected me on the "please use absolute path
in your diff/patches". Jacques informed us it was actually him. Incidentally, you'll note that I
always use myself and my own mistakes to illustrate "how things should be done". That particular
post was in a thread where David was suggesting a pre-commit review or lamenting the lack thereof.
Anyway, you'll see the same styles everywhere. Any to-the-point criticisms are first directed at
myself, sometimes even almost deviating from the truth in cases where I wasn't quite able to find
an example that qualifies myself as a target for said criticisms. At times, I may even have
stretched the truth about myself in order to "smooth things out", and could've been accused of
hypocrisy. For eg, I do have the tendency to admit to wrongdoing to some extent in order to "let
the dust settle". I wouldn't state the exact audience that witnessed this style (and the responses
to it) on this ML, but I can tell you that you can consider my tact universally acknowledged (and
in some cases even disapproved of, because the tact gave way to ill reason and bordered on letting
dishonesty take the final note.) Yes, my boss or bosses (future/potential ones) are in that
audience. Part of that audience also includes Singaporean companies deciding whether they want to
go with OFBiz.
(And for the record, to be clearly honest for a change, things are not looking good at all. Yes,
they're watching every message I type, so you should know I'm your biggest proponent here. Stuck
in a difficult in-between place.)
Back to Jacopo's case. One of the first "good rubs" with Jacopo was with the Product Variant BOMs
help from Jacopo. In fact, about the biggest reason my current boss is still with OFBiz is because
of his work in Manufacturing module. As I mentioned in a post to David, we're watching Jacopo; I
recommended him to cover for me in tech support once my project is done. After all, my boss is in
manufacturing and Jacopo has done a lot there. Despite his recent display (we're still comparing
with his past posts way back for a more holistic assessment), I still think he's the right candidate.
I'm not going to ask the ML (or anybody, for that matter) to admonish him for his behavior. He's
done a lot for OFBiz, and I'd honestly say he should take his Manufacturing module away with him
if we're to ask him to go away. I don't want him to go away. I don't want to be put in that
difficult position, so that's why I wouldn't want David in that position either. Well there I go
again, that same style. :) If Jacopo goes, OFBiz will not hold enough value for me and my bosses.
As for really rubbing some people the wrong way, I guess it has a lot to do with the fact that
I've weaned myself (and my bosses and future bosses) from dependence on ML tech support (yes, it
was officially deemed a non-support channel some weeks back). And possibly even more because I
unwittingly "damaged" the business model for some people here. I honestly didn't know at first the
technical references for OFBiz are only sold commercially. Upon realizing it, I had then consulted
David privately to ask if there's anything I can do (eg NOT publish my altruistic
yet-to-be-written Engineer's Manual) if it meant righting an imbalance in "give-and-take"
situation between OFBiz and users. David said it's Undersun that's profiting from those
commercially sold tech references, not OFBiz.
(I hope the dev list doesn't have paid customers, because some did complain about the tech
references sold. I have never seen those references, and can't comment. Would've wanted this post
to be private, but maybe I should really be perfectly honest for a change. Bosses would fry me if
they bought those references owing to my comments or the lack thereof, so I have to say I'm
neither arguing against nor for those references.)
Please understand that I had no option to avoid taking apart OFBiz and weaning my bosses from
reliance on a "difficult channel" for tech support. It was about the only way I could keep them
from chucking OFBiz in the trash. And maybe I should be honest (but I thought I'd mentioned this
several times) about my occupation; I'm a LEGAL reverse-engineer by trade (not just Java
compiled/source codes). If there's an implicit ban againt reverse-engineers in ML, please let me
know and I'll gladly oblige. This isn't my grandfather's ML. (There, same style again.)
I will certainly take your suggestions seriously, and heed your call for us to "come
[cooperate/play] together". However, I do hope the ML can appreciate that I'm caught in a
difficult in-between position, and my comments on the ML cannot deviate too far from "honest
business sense". I'd have thought my arguments for OFBiz are all the more potent precisely because
of my stark objectivity. And that appears to be the case (for now), since my bosses haven't turned
away from OFBiz yet.
I hope that this thread being on the dev list will mean it will stop here. I wouldn't want another
"baggin on OFBiz" session (you know my stakes in OFBiz). If it does spark a rowdy discussion, I'll
be the first to call for a stop to that.
One important note about the ML. I have noticed it's probably hard for some people to scan through
surrounding contexts (posts related to a post) when responding to a post. Perhaps that's where the
problem is?
I hope we understand each other more from this.
Jonathon
Tim Ruppert wrote:
Jonathon as an innocent bystander, all I can say is that with every word
you type you are rubbing people the wrong way. Please just take a
moment to read thru your posts before hitting send - and think about the
fact that there are tons of people here from different backgrounds who
are pushing towards the same goal.
I realize that your intentions are good and that you're working towards
that same goal, but understand that if you're rubbing everyone the wrong
way - it might not be them, but how you're choosing to phrase your
questions, comments and concerns.
All I ask is that you think about what you're saying and where you
really want things to go and phrase things accordingly. I'm not saying
that all responses to your digging have been phrased smoothly - but you
can only control yourself - so let's all give it a try.
This is not totally relevant, but I believe I wrote this up sometime
around the last episode people rubbing others the wrong way on the dev
list
- http://www.nabble.com/Why's-everybody-baggin'-on-OFBiz-lately-t3081858.html
Anyways, I hope you read this for what it is - a request to come
together - and you take my suggestions seriously. Thanks for posting
Jonathon and we look forward to more helpful things out of your in the
future.
Cheers,
Tim
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595
On Feb 7, 2007, at 3:27 AM, Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
Jacopo,
No, I'm not trolling. Are you?
If you meant the last concise post to you, it's because I know you're
really really busy. Just a sincere effort to cut down on "extras" in
my writing to you.
If you meant my comment on David's and Si Chen's discussion, like I
said, you better re-read for yourself. I'd rather not repeat something
so often it seems like I'm rubbing a fact in or something.
If you're still miffed for some reason, I'll say sorry again. But I
think we both better watch out, and stop this somewhere sometime soon.
Or both of us will be accused of messing up!
As I said, all posts are cached or read or otherwise recorded or
witnessed by others. We should both take a step back and re-read past
posts in order to avoid further misunderstanding.
My actions are plain for all to see, and so are yours. We should both
behave ourselves. Agree? :)
Jonathon
Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
Jonathon,
are you trolling?
Jacopo
Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
Er, Jacopo. Maybe I moved your cheese some time, I don't know. If
so, sorry!
Since you like conciseness, please re-read this thread between David
and Si Chen.
As for incorrect information, re-read my previous posts.
Jonathon
Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
Jonathon -- Improov wrote:
Si Chen,
I wasn't "saying" anything.
I think that this is the problem with many of your (and with those
of some new guys that recently are around in these lists) posts,
Jonathon: you say nothing with too many words, and this is
confusing, especially for new users and, in the dev list, it is
annoying because it's difficult to concentrate and discuss on the
development of OFBiz.
There is no need to comment every post and in general silence is
better than incorrect or partially correct information.
Jacopo
