Great job, Irina! Thanks for digging this out. -- With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, http://dataved.ru/ +7 916 562 8095
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Irina Arkhipets <irina.arkhip...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All, > > I investigated flash plugin crashes today and would like to share some > results. > > First of all, crash happens both with SWF10 and SWF 11. It seems like the > problem is reproducible with H263, H264 1.2 and H264 5.1. > > Actually, I haven't noticed significant CPU usage degradation for H264 in > compare with H263 - it always was about 50-70% when I enter OpenMeetings > room. The same is true about the memory usage. > > I was able to get the crash report in Mozilla, however for now don't see > any info which can help me there. > > Tested environment was: Windows XP + Mozilla FireFox 19.0 + flash player > 11.5.502.146. Tested server was demo.dataved.ru, there were two users with > videos (1 with big window and the other with normal) in the room + me with > normal window. > > For now anybody can try different cases on > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings and get own expression. > > Below are the links which can be tested and my today results for each of > them: > > - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf10.swf&junk=666 - > SWF10 + H263. Crashed 3 times from 10. > - http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h263.swf&junk=666- > SWF11 + H263. Crashed 0 times from 10. > - > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_1_2.swf&junk=666- > SWF11 + H264 1.2. Crashed 2 times from 10. > - > http://demo.dataved.ru/openmeetings/?swf=main.as3.swf11.h264_5_1.swf&junk=666- > SWF11 + H264 5/1/ Crashed 1 times from 10. > > Best regards, > Irina. > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> that is definitely something not readable :( >> I can see the word "static" in the generated code :) this is global >> variables :))) >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:57 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > just for consideration, >> > attached is the current AS3 that OpenLaszlo generates. >> > >> > >> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27836308/lzswf9.tar.gz >> > >> > Sebastian >> > >> > >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> > >> >> I thought maybe it will be simple to convert swf10 folder of our sources >> >> + I would like "someone else" will handle it :)))) >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:38 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> >> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Sorry but that is useless. >> >>> The AS3 code that OpenLaszlo compiles is not human readable. It is >> >>> generated into some tmp directory. >> >>> You can search on your disc for a file called LZC_COMPILER_OPTIONS >> >>> That should be into the same directory as the actual AS3 files. >> >>> >> >>> The thing is that there are of course some high level similarities. >> >>> However there are also high level similarities between AS3 and HTML5. >> For >> >>> example an ActionScript3 "Sprite" is nearly the same as an HTML "div" >> or >> >>> maybe "span" but you can really translate those things just and expect >> the >> >>> functionality is the same. >> >>> >> >>> The entire notation in MXML is different, same about the script blogs. >> >>> A script blog in openlaszlo looks like: >> >>> var zxac = 3; >> >>> in AS it would look like: >> >>> var zxac:int = 3; >> >>> No matter how you do it, you will have to go through every file, debug >> >>> every line of code, understand the logic, convert it to MXML, test it. >> And >> >>> some constructs of course won't translate that easy. >> >>> For example in Flex you can't create that simple a "global" pointer. >> >>> Like: canvas.myattribute or parent.myattribute >> >>> This simply won't compile. AS3 won't let you compile such pointers. You >> >>> need to pass the parameter into the object to access its attributes, or >> >>> pass the attribute inside of it. >> >>> So a lot of the things we do when having some attribute in the canvas >> >>> and pointing to them from various places in the app ... it simply >> doesn't >> >>> work in MXML. >> >>> >> >>> So of course it depends on to what extend you plan to build a Flex >> >>> client. Maybe just the SWF11 app converting to MXML is an option. But >> the >> >>> entire SWF8 app. I don't think so. Just too complex. >> >>> >> >>> Sebastian >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedo...@gmail.com> >> >>> >> >>>> The files appear in some temporary directory. I cannot remember where >> >>>> they are exactly. If you make an error when embedding action script >> >>>> into openlaszlo (should be something on action script level, xml >> >>>> markup would break the preprocessor itself), you get in the error >> >>>> message an exact pointer to the file where your error is put. >> >>>> -- >> >>>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >> >>>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >> >>>> http://dataved.ru/ >> >>>> +7 916 562 8095 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Maxim Solodovnik < >> >>>> solomax...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> > @Alexey we currently using flex 4.5.0, 4.6.1 to create bytecode >> >>>> > "can be inspected/used" means autoconverted :) action script instead >> >>>> of >> >>>> > openlaszlo is also good :) >> >>>> > >> >>>> > can you please tell me how this can be inspected? >> >>>> > >> >>>> > @Sebastian I thought we use only view/label/dataset/connection in >> our >> >>>> swf10 >> >>>> > code .... all these primitives should be available in MXML. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Alexei Fedotov < >> >>>> alexei.fedo...@gmail.com> >> >>>> > wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> @Max AS3 means action script >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> Modern OpenLaszlo compiles into AS3, these files can be inspected >> and >> >>>> >> used instead of openlaszlo files. >> >>>> >> Then standard Adobe tools create swf bytecode from AS3. >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> -- >> >>>> >> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, >> >>>> >> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, >> >>>> >> http://dataved.ru/ >> >>>> >> +7 916 562 8095 >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:18 AM, seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> <seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> > MXML has certainly advantages in the sense of wider acceptance >> and >> >>>> >> > better >> >>>> >> > development tools. >> >>>> >> > But it really means to build something from scratch. >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > Sebastian >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> >> @Alexey we currently using openlaszlo for video (not sure what >> do >> >>>> you >> >>>> >> >> mean >> >>>> >> >> by AS3). Currently our version of video components is built >> using >> >>>> >> >> flex.4.6.1 while actual version available for download is flex >> >>>> 4.9.1. >> >>>> >> >> I was hoping we will have less bugs and better performance if we >> >>>> will >> >>>> >> >> use >> >>>> >> >> MXML directly for our code. But this is just a guess. >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 2:00 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> >>>> >> >> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >>> You can simply disable h264 and build to swf11. >> >>>> >> >>> It is only about the codec not about SWF formats. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> I just compared and could not really find out if there are big >> >>>> >> >>> differences. >> >>>> >> >>> However it is definitly good to really compare the impacts on >> >>>> CPU and >> >>>> >> >>> bandwidth usage when switching the Codec for video encoding. >> >>>> >> >>> It seemed to me like encoding with h264 is using a second >> >>>> process (on >> >>>> >> >>> OSX >> >>>> >> >>> that process is called WindowsServer). It might be that h264 >> >>>> encoding >> >>>> >> >>> can >> >>>> >> >>> use some more system ressources. However... all just guessing >> at >> >>>> this >> >>>> >> >>> point. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Maybe we can add conversion task to the GSOC ideas? do we need >> >>>> it? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> I don't see any problems with h264 >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm going to build >> >>>> >> >>>> 1) SWF11 with h264 support removed >> >>>> >> >>>> 2) SWF11 with different h264 profile >> >>>> >> >>>> 3) SWF10 >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> and compare >> >>>> >> >>>> but i'm not expecting any major differences :( >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:17 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> >>>> >> >>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> No there is no such conversion. You have to rewrite the LZX >> to >> >>>> MXML >> >>>> >> >>>>> and >> >>>> >> >>>>> AS3 files. >> >>>> >> >>>>> What about the Video Codec? I don't think it makes sense to >> >>>> start a >> >>>> >> >>>>> RC2 >> >>>> >> >>>>> vote before this issue has been further analyzed. >> >>>> >> >>>>> Is there a given restriction that needs h264? >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> 2013/3/13 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> @Sebastian, maybe you know, is there any possibility to >> >>>> >> >>>>>> automatically/semi-automatically convert our swf10 sources >> to >> >>>> >> >>>>>> "apache flex >> >>>> >> >>>>>> xml"? Since Openlaszlo seems to be not actively developed >> and >> >>>> flex >> >>>> >> >>>>>> is now >> >>>> >> >>>>>> part of Apache, maybe we can benefit from such conversion? >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Maxim Solodovnik < >> >>>> >> >>>>>> solomax...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I have forwarded all missing messages >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> you wrote me without CC'ing Irina or the list :) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I missed the 'reply all' button somehow. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this one >> >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> @Irina can you describe your problem more detailed? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:46 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> We should simply do some tests to measure the actual >> >>>> video with >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> h264 and the default Sorensen Codec. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Then we have some numbers. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> What are the exact reports for "Flash Player crashing" ? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I can add switching H264 off, but I'm not sure if this >> >>>> is the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> problem. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Most claims are related to the crashing flash in >> browser. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Do you think this would help? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:56 PM, seba.wag...@gmail.com< >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I did not meant default h323 I meant the default >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorenson Spark >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorenson_Spark >> >(Sorenson >> >>>> H.263) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 seba.wag...@gmail.com < >> seba.wag...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> h264 simply needs more computing time. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> AEC also is enabled (which needs some percentages >> more >> >>>> CPU >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power then the previous implementation). >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Switching to later Flex SDK is surely desirable but >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> basically >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the performance is a Flash Player/VirtualMachine >> issue >> >>>> not a >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Compiler >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. So as long as there is no Flash Player 12 that >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires a later Flex >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SDK it is unlikely that you will gain performance >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantages. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a hardware acceleration for playback >> >>>> of >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> video, but I have really no idea about producing h264 >> >>>> in the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> browser in >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that context. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From my point of view the main reason for using h264 >> >>>> is the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> SIP >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration. For users that don't use SIP integration >> >>>> using >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 will >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> simply just mean an annoying CPU usage. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The case is different for AEC from my point of view. >> >>>> AEC >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> brings >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> enhancement for everybody immediately. And the more >> of >> >>>> CPU >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that it uses is >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only 3-4 % from my point of view. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So my preference would be to make the video codec use >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> standard h323. To be honest: Who has ever complained >> >>>> in the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> last couple of >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years about video quality? The discussion is almost >> >>>> always >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about audio >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> delay, audio quality, micro echo, bad microphones et >> >>>> cetera >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but actually >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> never about video quality. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And from what I have seen h264 also brings no >> >>>> improvements >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> terms of bandwidth usage. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> h264 could be available via configuration (or to >> >>>> enable SIP >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> integration), but h323 should be used by default. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/3/12 Maxim Solodovnik <solomax...@gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Raju, Sebastian, >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OPENMEETINGS-559 and >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> various user reports (including mail from >> >>>> Sebastian[1]) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Main code changes were: adding EnchancedMicrophone >> and >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to h264 >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the Google switching to h264 can cause >> >>>> higher >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CPU >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usage. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can this be fixed by changing H264Level? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (currently H264Level.LEVEL_1_2 is used) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can us understand were >> performance/stability >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> degradation caused by code changes? Or maybe it is >> >>>> because >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Flex4.6.0? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can stability be improved by switching to Flex4.9.1? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for your help >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://markmail.org/message/2el63qarsjmbvfyy>-- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WBR >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WBR >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> WBR >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WBR >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>>> WBR >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> >>>>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> >>>>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> >>>>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>> WBR >> >>>> >> >>>> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >>>> >> >>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> >>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> -- >> >>>> >> >> WBR >> >>>> >> >> Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > >> >>>> >> > -- >> >>>> >> > Sebastian Wagner >> >>>> >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>>> >> > http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>>> >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>>> >> > seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > -- >> >>>> > WBR >> >>>> > Maxim aka solomax >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Sebastian Wagner >> >>> https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> >>> http://www.webbase-design.de >> >>> http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> >>> seba.wag...@gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> WBR >> >> Maxim aka solomax >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sebastian Wagner >> > https://twitter.com/#!/dead_lock >> > http://www.webbase-design.de >> > http://www.wagner-sebastian.com >> > seba.wag...@gmail.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> WBR >> Maxim aka solomax >>
